Need a rule to support this answer.

[GEN-4-35]

During the course of fire,a competitor engages a pepper popper which does not fall. After the COF,the shooter challenges the calibration. The CRO cannot find ANY EVIDENCE OF A HIT and denies the challenge. Is the CRO correct in his ruling? I beleive the ruling is correct but cannot find the rule to support it.

[DonovanM]

Appendix C1

Edited December 31, 2011 by DonovanM

[Skydiver]

Donovan has it right. From Appendix C1.6:

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

[Jim Norman]

Actually I think that he has to call the Calibration Official per C7

c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibration.

In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it

stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a

Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the

course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule,

the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire

will be scored “as shot”. If the popper falls for any non-interference

reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will

apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

7. In the absence of any interference, or problem with a target mechanism, a

calibration officer must conduct a calibration test of the subject popper

(when required under 6c above), from as near as possible to the point from

where the competitor shot the popper.

No where do I see where the RO/CRO is allowed to not order the test.

In fact as I see it the shooter in this case MUST be ordered to reshoot the stage.

You don't mention if the steel has been properly painted between shooters.

If the steel was not painted, how could the CRO tell, even if it was painted,

the rule is clear, the shooter must reshoot the course.

The OP did state that the shooter DID engage the popper.

[Gary Johnson]

4.3.1.5 is the rule you're looking for. Here's the relevant chunk:

"Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7."

[Sarge]

somebody is taking their RO test.

[Loves2Shoot]

During the course of fire,a competitor engages a pepper popper which does not fall. After the COF,the shooter challenges the calibration. The CRO cannot find ANY EVIDENCE OF A HIT and denies the challenge. Is the CRO correct in his ruling? I beleive the ruling is correct but cannot find the rule to support it.

Unless the popper was PERFECTLY painted I would call for a calibration. I've seen some weird hits that barely leave a mark. If he is sure there was no hit, the stated rules back him up.

[Don Springer]

Oh come on. You guys are really gonna give the guy a reshoot for a miss?

[Jim Norman]

No, I will give him the reshoot for the actions of the RO.

[Loves2Shoot]

Oh come on. You guys are really gonna give the guy a reshoot for a miss?

If the CRO gives a calibration, and the popper is set properly, it will fall and the shooter gets a miss, not a reshoot.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[Nik Habicht]

No, I will give him the reshoot for the actions of the RO.

Jim,

the RO might not have been wrong -- assuming poppers painted between shooters and no evidence of a hit.....

Appendix C1 item 6 requires evidence of a hit for calibration to apply....

[Outsydlooknin75]

Where does it say steel must be repainted? I think it is suggested, but not required.

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[sperman]

4.3.1.7 Metal scoring targets must, if hit, be painted after each competitor. An inadvertent failure to paint one or more targets prior to a competitor’s attempt at the course of fire shall not be grounds for a reshoot.

[Don Springer]

Oh come on. You guys are really gonna give the guy a reshoot for a miss?

If the CRO gives a calibration, and the popper is set properly, it will fall and the shooter gets a miss, not a reshoot.

No I get you.

It's some of the other stuff I've read that made my jaw drop. I mean if the steel is not PERFECTLY painted there is NOOOOOOOOOO way we can tell if it was hit or not. I mean the ding on steel isn't enough. We can't trust the RO who is volunteering his time to us and the sport to make a right call BUT... we can trust the RO to inform the Calibration Official of where the shooter took the shot from? So what happens if the poor sucker who is volunteering his time calls over the other poor sucker who's giving up his Sunday to provide everyone a good time and then the shooter and RO can't agree to the spot in which the shot was taken? Do we then call over the Location Determination Committee? At what point does it stop? At what point do we expect shooters to start taking responsibility for their own game and thank the RO for providing help at the match? Instead it's like there are 2 games being played. One is a game of marksmanship, the other is a game of "Know the Rule Book better than the RO and try to twist the rules to my favor when the wheels fall off".

The funny thing is the guy who complains and fights one miss for a half hour is the same guy who complains that the matches take to long and ends up shooting and scooting.

Now, on top of everything else, I gotta make sure our club gets an automotive painters booth and we keep a full time autobody guy on site to maintain our steel.

BTW, I'm in no way challenging your knowledge or interpretation of the rule book. I'm just challenging the rules lawyer mindset. We all know that the odds are the dude flat out missed the shot.

[Outsydlooknin75]

4.3.1.7 Metal scoring targets must, if hit, be painted after each competitor. An inadvertent failure to paint one or more targets prior to a competitor’s attempt at the course of fire shall not be grounds for a reshoot.

But it not being painted is not grounds for a reshoot. So you can't base a reshoot on non painted steel.

Shooter calls for a calibration of the steel. He should get it.

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[Nik Habicht]

Where does it say steel must be repainted? I think it is suggested, but not required.

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My point is: If the steel was repainted between shooters, and there was no evidence of a hit, then the competitor can;t call for calibration.....

I didn't say painting steel was required, just that I could think of a situation where an RO could legitimately decline calibration. As with all other calls the RO would need to be certain -- and that would at least partly require painting between shooters....

[George Jones]

It's simple. It's not about about someone thinks "should" happen. It's about what's in the rulebook.

The rule says a calibration challenge is available if the steel is HIT. If it's not hit, no challenge is available.

Why should everyone's match be delayed for an undeserved calibration?

If it's hit = calibration. If it's not hit = Mike and move on.

The rule about unpainted steel not being grounds for a reshoot is not related to this. It's simply to avoid an undeserved reshoot (again) simply because one piece of steel on the stage was not painted. Otherwise, I could knock it down and still use it as an alibi for a reshoot to void the three no-shoots I blasted later on the stage.

BTW, painting steel is required after every shooter, although there is a Level I exemption. See 4.3.1.7 and sub.

[Outsydlooknin75]

There is no mention of what level the match is so it could be a level one although doubtful.

Could the CRO have missed an edge hit, or a low edge hit? Was it a true miss or just a piss poor hit?

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[LPatterson]

[Devils Advocate]

The OP said the shooter engaged the target meaning he/she shot at it. So it didn't fall and the shooter wanted a calibration check, at that point the RO is obligated to call the RM for a calibration check. The RM should preform a calibration check from a point as nearly as possible for the original shot.

[/Devils Advocate Off]

If the RO was watching closely enough to state he saw the shot miss he sould call a mike but to not touch it because the shooter asked for a calibration check. Folks if it falls then the shooter is going to be called a gaming woozy by the squad for the rest of the match. The 5 to 10 minutes it takes is not going to increase the number of shoot and scoot shooters beyond those who are lazy anyway.

[George Jones]

If the RO was watching closely enough to state he saw the shot miss he sould call a mike but to not touch it because the shooter asked for a calibration check. Folks if it falls then the shooter is going to be called a gaming woozy by the squad for the rest of the match. The 5 to 10 minutes it takes is not going to increase the number of shoot and scoot shooters beyond those who are lazy anyway.

The rule says nothing about what the RO saw during the COF. Either the steel was hit or it was not. If there is no evidence of a hit on the popper, no call to RM, no calibration challenge.

That's why the rule says steel must be painted.

Happy New Year!

[Don Springer]

[Devils Advocate]

The OP said the shooter engaged the target meaning he/she shot at it. So it didn't fall and the shooter wanted a calibration check, at that point the RO is obligated to call the RM for a calibration check. The RM should preform a calibration check from a point as nearly as possible for the original shot.

[/Devils Advocate Off]

If the RO was watching closely enough to state he saw the shot miss he sould call a mike but to not touch it because the shooter asked for a calibration check. Folks if it falls then the shooter is going to be called a gaming woozy by the squad for the rest of the match. The 5 to 10 minutes it takes is not going to increase the number of shoot and scoot shooters beyond those who are lazy anyway.

I totally agree with your call on the ruling as it is written. My complaint is not the one shooter. My complaint is on that shooter on that stage and the next shooter on the next stage and so on and so forth. How many HOURS (hell, DAYS) have been lost to this kind of shooter through out the history of this sport? I know he probably missed the shot and is grasping at straws, his squad mates know it and YOU know that MOST LIKELY he missed. I think the rules in USPSA and IDPA are geared towards giving the shooter the benefit but at some point it has to stop. At some point the ROs call has to be infallible. At some point the people playing these games have got to be GENTLEMEN.

I'm as competitive as the next guy and DO NOT like to lose. But if I blow it... I blow it. I'm not gonna go grab the rule book and try to plead my case out of MY MISTAKE. I'm willing to take RESPONSIBILTY.

My problem is I'm new to this and I've taken on the majority of a new clubs growing pains. I'm the one who memorizes the rules. I'm the one that designs the stages. I'm the one that puts on the majority of the matches. I'm the one that has to be a dink and correct other peoples mistakes when someone else takes on a match. I'M the one that is on here reading EVERYTHING (ok over exagerated )that is typed on these forums trying to make sure we put on the best match possible. I'm not looking for a pat on the back or grats. I enjoy what I do and like the rest of you I'm an ego maniac. I don't think anyone puts on as good a match as I do. I don't need anyone to tell me I do a good job. I just want the difficult shooter to stop trying to act like I'm an idiot. Either that or take the responsibility of putting on the shoots so I don't have to put so much time into it. >_< ..|.,

It's just so frustrating to see MDs and SOs hammered on constantly for perfection and then see people not willing to accept an SOs call of a miss.

There is an arbitration process and there really needs to be a penalty for envoking it unnecessarily. You wanna say you hit something you didn't? Fine. If you're proven wrong then you just lost yourself the match. There is way too much crying going on. Much like in baseball I don't believe there should be any crying in the shooting sports... unless you got shot then my bad.

/rant

[Don Springer]

Oh, and I wasn't saying the dude was gonna leave becasue the match was taking too long over his complaint. I was just saying he was the type of shooter that whines then leaves early anyway. I was just saying he's an undesirable.

[Resjudicata]

I've shot several big matches and had folks on my squad ask for a calibration on steel. Nobody on the squad ever got bitchy because of it. Typically guys don't bitch about something like that because on the next stage you may be the one asking for a calibration. Then, if the shooter loses the calibration request the whole squad gets to give him/her a hard time the rest of the day. Part of the fun.

That said, I noticed that folks are suggesting that the RO or CRO should or could be paying attention to whether the shooter hit a particular piece of steel. Aren't they supposed to be watching the competitor and the competitor's gun for safety? Rather than watching what the competitor is shooting at or missing? I don't think the RO or CRO should be making a decision on whether a competitor hit something without evidence on that particular target showing one way or the other.

I think under the rules, the RO has to call the calibration officer unless the steel has been painted between shooters and there is clear and convincing evidence that there is no hit of any kind on the steel. If there is doubt it should go to the shooter.

Chris

[George Jones]

That said, I noticed that folks are suggesting that the RO or CRO should or could be paying attention to whether the shooter hit a particular piece of steel. Aren't they supposed to be watching the competitor and the competitor's gun for safety? Rather than watching what the competitor is shooting at or missing? I don't think the RO or CRO should be making a decision on whether a competitor hit something without evidence on that particular target showing one way or the other.

You are absolutely correct. However, the RO has peripheral vision. He does see down range while looking at the gun. In many cases, he can hear the steel being hit. But the proof of the hit is on the popper, not what the RO thinks he sees or hears.

I think under the rules, the RO has to call the calibration officer unless the steel has been painted between shooters and there is clear and convincing evidence that there is no hit of any kind on the steel. If there is doubt it should go to the shooter.

Chris

Again, correct. I would not phrase it that way, however. There is no "benefit of the doubt" rule (too many worms in that can). What we expect of our ROs is to only make calls when they are sure. The rules require steel to be painted after every shooter. The evidence on the popper should be clear.

If there is any uncertainty, a rule/penalty cannot be applied. In this case, the RO/CRO would not deny a calibration challenge unless he was sure the popper was not hit. The shooter can always appeal to the CRO, then to RM if he disagrees with the call.

[deacon12224]

It seems to me as if some are placing the burden of proving that a reshoot is not allowed on the RO. Per the rule cited above, unless there is a hit to the popper in question, the competitor doesn't have the right to even request a calibration. If the competitor can't point to a hit on the steel, he can't even ask for a callibration. The rule does not say if the steel does not fall when engaged, it says if the steel does not fall when hit. Big difference.

ROs are called upon all the time to determine if steel has been hit:

- No Shoot poppers score a penalty whether they fall or not.

- Stationary no shoot steel score penalties.

- If plates are hit but do not fall, REF.

- If a popper or plate falls from a hit on the frame or other supporting mechanism, REF

- If a popper or plate falls from the wind and not a bullet during the COF, REF

- AND, was the popper hit but did not fall, thus allowing for a calibration challenge.

The lesson here is "paint your steel". If you as a competitor care enough about your score to challenge a steel callibration, then you should care enough to paint the steel after each shooter.