Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Anybody here shoot subgun matches?


J-Ho

Recommended Posts

I'm seriously considering treating myself to a subgun. I was wondering if anone has any experience at subgun matches. Any advice would be appreciated, about matches or class 3 ownership in general. Thanks guys!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't yet but go to the uzitalk.com forums for match info. I went with a trust, mine is around 12 pages and has to be notorized and sent off with the form 4. If you go the other route you have to get an LEO to sign, fingerprints and photo, for each "toy" you add. Lot less foot work with the trust.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

'Never shot formal matches, but did own MG's for many years..

I sold my last one in the fall and it broke my heart. My fave's were all 5.56mm guns,

but at the end I was down to a full sized UZI and my beloved FNC.

I got rid off all my other 556's because at $0.50 a bang it just wiped me out financially;

300 rounds, under 10 minutes, hell... Under 5 minutes.. $150.00...

'Expensive for the initial purchase (Depending on what you buy...) but I suggest a 9mm sub-gun

but of very good high quality. My #1 choice would be another MP5 w/ spare parts followed by an full sized UZI, Walther and or Beretta.

I prefer the H&K because of the bolt firing from the closed position as opposed to the UZI firing "Open Bolt"..

IMHO - Do not get tempted to do a Cobray or the other "Entry Level" 9's or TINY one's as you will be very disappointed and

want to buy better in short order; trouble is is that buyers remorse in THIS field is VERY expensive and time consuming for sure...

If you want to go 5.56mm, I'm a BIG fan of the Ruger AC-556, but if you get one be certain it is a newer model of at least 190- series or later..

IF I were buying just 1 556 MG again I would go straight to Todd @ www.tbasuppressors.com and buy one of his new FNC conversions..

They are TOP grade and he is "Good People" for certain... (I am not affiliated BTW..)

Good luck, let us know whatchado..!!

Eric

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

IMHO - Do not get tempted to do a Cobray or the other "Entry Level" 9's or TINY one's as you will be very disappointed and

want to buy better in short order

J-Ho was asking about a gun specifically for subgun matches. What guns are nearly always at the top of the ranking at most subgun matches you've seen?

Oddly enough, it's usually the "cheap" M11/9. I agree that in stock configuration, it leaves a bit to be desired. There is more aftermarket support for that particular gun that any other subgun out there. I agree that an MP5 would be nice. They were expensive at $5500 when I first got into subguns. Now they're close to $20,000. It's difficult to justify that kind of price when you can get a competitive gun for 4 to 5 times less, and smile when you kick the HK Snobs butts. They even split up the Knob Creek match into open bolt & closed bolt so the HK shooters wouldn't have to compete directly with the "cheap" M11/9s. ;)

And now that there are a few closed-bolt conversion out there for the M11/9, guess what gun won the closed-bolt/optics category last fall at the Creek?

Now, for a match-only gun, the Sterling is extremely smooth and easy to shoot. In the same price range, the Uzi is more versatile and easier to mount an optic on. I went that route, as I could get a .22 conversion for the Uzi as well.

But I still shoot my tricked-out M11/9 better.

I prefer the H&K because of the bolt firing from the closed position as opposed to the UZI firing "Open Bolt"..

I would love an MP5, but as noted above I really can't justify the price. I run my Uzi in closed bolt setup as well. It's less reliable, and the ROF is way too fast. I've got it slowed down to where I can pull doubles, but it still has some bugs to work out. Closed bolt guns are not any more accurate in my experience than Open Bolt guns.

Here's a couple with the M11/9. I'm always tempted to push the 58-round mag a little too far, as seen in the first vid. :sick:

Edited by Garrett
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember a few years ago some guys were using AR stocks with buffers on M11/9 to slow down their rate of fire for competition. I don't know if that was a fad or if they are still doing it. Who is building race Class III sub guns now and do you have any web sites.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember a few years ago some guys were using AR stocks with buffers on M11/9 to slow down their rate of fire for competition. I don't know if that was a fad or if they are still doing it. Who is building race Class III sub guns now and do you have any web sites.

Check out the uppers from Lage and Alliance Armament. Both are rate reducers and from the talk of forum (yes I took my grain of salt) they are both good choices. I'm VERY new to this but have been reading up and I'm sure I'll learn more as I shoot some matches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember a few years ago some guys were using AR stocks with buffers on M11/9 to slow down their rate of fire for competition. I don't know if that was a fad or if they are still doing it.

That's how my gun is set up. The added weight from the AR15 buffer slows the ROF significantly. You usually have to play with springs as well. I use either a solid steel buffer (9 oz) or a rate-reducing buffer from AAC (11.oz) The biggest negative to this system is that you have to drill a hole in the rear of your receiver. It's nothing that can't be fixed, but a lot of people would balk at it.

At the time, there were a couple of drop-in rate reducers that sort of worked, but not well enough. There was a slow-fire upper that had been made in very low quantities, that everyone had heard of but nobody ever saw. There were a handful of custom "heavy" bolts out there. The AR15 stock method (typically referred to as a TASK slowfire, as it was developed by some guys in the Triad Action Shooting Klub) was really the only reliable method that was generally available. I remember reading about it in the first issue of Small Arms Review, where the author stated it had been developed as an alternative to "buying an expensive $3500 MP5". (Those were the days.)

However, the need to drill out your lower receiver went away when Lage started building high quality drop-in slow fire uppers and putting them out in quantity.

Check out the uppers from Lage and Alliance Armament. Both are rate reducers and from the talk of forum (yes I took my grain of salt) they are both good choices.

As you say, drop-in slowfire uppers are available from both Lage and Alliance Armament. I've shot the Lage MAX-11 on a couple of occasions. To be honest, it feels a little choppier than my slow-fire M11. More like shooting an Uzi. That being said, if it had been available at the time, I'd have likely gone with one of those.

Both the AA unit, and the Lage MAX-31 give you the option of using Soumi drums or 50-round coffin mags. The MAX-11 uses the traditional magwell/grip on the M11. Drum models from either company require you to get on a waiting list until one becomes available (my .22 kit from Lage was around a 1-year wait). Last I heard, Lage had enough MAX-11s on hand and was shipping them pretty quickly. I know he's basically a 1-man shop, and subs out a lot of his work. So sometimes it takes a while. His stuff is pretty much always in demand.

AA hasn't been making M11 uppers for nearly as long, but from what I've seen of them they are high quality as well. Their unit is a little more bulky, but gives you more caliber options. Reportedly, they are planning to make a magwell to use a Beta mag (M16 or MP5), as welll as a handful of other caliber conversions that are out there now.

I keep thinking I should get a MAX-31 or an AA. But I haven't gotten there yet. Many matches either limit the number of rounds in the gun (so drums offer no advantage), or require you to reload when moving between arrays. This keeps the guys with drums from dominating by not having to reload, but there is still an advantage to having a lot of extra ammo on board.

eta: subgun competition discussion at Bullethose.com

Edited by Garrett
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow talk about over compensating, why dont you just pry open the wallet and upgrade to an MP5? :P

I'd love to have an MP5. Then again, I borrowed one to use on a different category at the match on the second video I posted above. Guess which gun choked half way through the stage... And it wasn't the M11. :blink:

Course I really perfer my M16.

I keep toying with the idea of selling the M11 and the Reising and putting it toward am M16. But those guns can be finicky when set up om 9mm. Even so, it's modular enough and versatile enough that there's not much you couldn't do with one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

I too am a MP5 guy. My Dad paid $850 back before the ban, but will never sell it. My son loves it. We pressed in an after market barrel and it stays on a 16 to 20" plate at 100 yards. It shot lead like a champ back then. 2 Claw mounts that return very close if not on every time. Low power scope and an Aimpoint. We had several matches back in Indiana but times have changed. Even had a Bianchi match for the subguns.

My Reising 55 is ok compared to an MP5 but the mag quantity is lacking. Had to put a model 50 stock on it to enjoy it a little.

A friend built up a Frankenstin from a Suomi that handles great. Might be a cheaper option. All the parts are listed on the web. If you want more info, PM me. I will ask him for the info.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the Reising M55 has it in the looks department, but the wire stock can't be all that comfortable to shoot.

You can get the 30 round Ken Christie mags for it. They run as well as my 20 round mags.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

Got my permission slip back from big brother and my Alliance Armament AMP-10 the day after. I had to dink around with the mags to get them to seat smooth and relatively quick. Now that it is up and running, wow! Very nice controllable rate of fire. Single aren't hard, double are very easy. It's heavy, with a lot of weight out front. All that weight does make it a true pleasure to shoot. I did a 36 round mag dump into a 6 inch group at 15 yards. Took a plate rack down in one pass across, probably 10-12 rounds. This thing is a real hoot. I'm headed to a local subgun match next weekend. I have a feeling my ammo budget is going to go up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not being a PITA, but just wondering - does

a subgun make you faster than an OPEN pistol?

I may be wrong, but watching the video, it seemed

to me that someone good with an OPEN gun could have

shot the COF just as fast ...

Anyone try tto shoot a COF with subgun & then with

a OPEN gun, and see what their times are?

:cheers:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not being a PITA, but just wondering - does

a subgun make you faster than an OPEN pistol?

I may be wrong, but watching the video, it seemed

to me that someone good with an OPEN gun could have

shot the COF just as fast ...

Anyone try tto shoot a COF with subgun & then with

a OPEN gun, and see what their times are?

:cheers:

I think it is a valid argument but I'm not sure you could compare the two. My bet us the number of subgun competitors is next to nothing compared to USPSA, even a less popular division like open. That's like comparing a 1A vs a 5A high school football team. The talent pool is very lopsided. It is also a game where not much innovation can take place, except for a handful of people who can make new guns. Yes there are some competition type parts out there but no 'built from the ground up to race' guns. New guns are not competition driven, they are military and police driven. I think all things being equal, a subgun would be faster, maybe by a just a little bit if at all, but things are far from equal between those two games. I know some folks who have played around with pistol caliber carbines and pistols and the pistols won almost every time. These were pistol type stages so tight corners and ports are much easier with a limited or open gun. But then you also have to factor in the fun factor and in that arena an open gun ain't got $h!t on a subgun :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have shot USPSA stages with both an Open gun and a subgun. It often depends on the stage, which gun will do better.

As noted, the pistol transitions and manuvers better. Reloads are about the same for me.

You also have to consider, one often does better the second time through a course. So you have an advantage for whichever gun goes second.

Where the subgun can be at a disadvantage is if it runs too fast to pull singles on demand. You burn through more ammo than you need to, and end up making extra reloads. I saw this recently at a match. There was a rimfire stage that could be shot semi or full auto. It was a stand & shoot type stage with around 45 steel plates. The subgunners had two reloads where the semi shooters only had one. Nearly all fo the semiauto rifle shooters posted better times than the SMG shooters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just my 2 cents - find something that has an available 22 kit. Your ammo budget is going to take hits amidships!

FWIW, many years ago I sold my MP5K PDW (Fleming sear gun) for $4k to buy Mrs Riedl's engagement ring (I said it was MANY years ago!)

Good luck, have fun

Mark

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Faster...in what way. While my SMG shoots faster splits than a shot timer can pick up, its not legal for the games we play. I'd take 3 round burst on more than a few 3 gun stages, if you let me. The "why not" is only if you can't afford the option.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...