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People paying you for reloaded ammo is illegal.


XxMerlinxX

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Why not?

It's become a lawsuit society. Everyone a potential victim of a suit.

The "in all probability, you will lose everything and maybe have to pay him for the rest of your life." Was the part I disagreed with. There are many ways to protect yourself in business, so I won't go there but even if you operated as an individual and loose a lawsuit for a kajillon dollars, it's not the end of the world.

In 2010, 1,593,081 people filed for bankruptcy. Rounding the population to 300 million that's 1 out of every 212. It's likely you know at least one person that has filed themselves and life goes on.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Statistics/BankruptcyStatistics.aspx

For better or worse, you can't get blood out of a turnip and there are no debtor's prisons

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Why not?

It's become a lawsuit society. Everyone a potential victim of a suit.

The "in all probability, you will lose everything and maybe have to pay him for the rest of your life." Was the part I disagreed with. There are many ways to protect yourself in business, so I won't go there but even if you operated as an individual and loose a lawsuit for a kajillon dollars, it's not the end of the world.

In 2010, 1,593,081 people filed for bankruptcy. Rounding the population to 300 million that's 1 out of every 212. It's likely you know at least one person that has filed themselves and life goes on.

http://www.uscourts.gov/Statistics/BankruptcyStatistics.aspx

For better or worse, you can't get blood out of a turnip and there are no debtor's prisons

I agree with you for a business but as an individual operating illegally is where the problem lies.

As for debtor's prisons - I say YET! :roflol:

Happy New Year.

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Actually, I know 3 guys I can think of off the top of my head that have done just that with a simple sight inspection and in residential neighborhoods. All of them quit after they got tired of losing money by selling their reloaded ammo.

In what state did these guys operate?

Incidentally, it doesn't surprise me that they got out of the biz, since the only way to make money in loading ammo is in high volume. One person cranking / monitoring a press cannot possibly sell enough ammo to cover the overhead, at least in an expensive metro area like the one I live in.

Bend, OR. The business got sold from one to another, to another and I think the equipment eventually got sold on E-bay and Gunbroker with the last guy. I've seen a lot of people that start businesses because they think the work will be fun or "cool" but don't do the work to see what it will take to make an honest profit. A lot of hobby guys quit once they have the expenses hit them a real business sees.

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This thread is full of misinformation, beginning with the fact that selling reloaded ammunition constitutes "manufacturing." Selling ammunition without a license is no different than selling firearms without a license. It happens all the time on this forum and everywhere else for that matter.

If everyone in the world was actually as afraid of the IRS as most people in the "gun owning community" are of the ATF, everyone would be looking over their shoulder thinking they were going to get locked up every day. The fact of the matter is that, like any "crime" or regulatory violation, "manufacturing without a license" isn't a charge thrown at the guy who makes 50 rounds for his neighbor.

The ATF will not give you an FFL (other than a 03) unless you are engaged in a business, for profit and livelihood. If they would, we'd all have them because it'd make all of our lives a whole lot easier. And if you're not eligible for a license--because you are not engaged in a business for profit and livelihood--then you couldn't possibly be guilty of a regulatory violation that punishes you for not having a license. I won't claim that all government/policy actions are rational, but if you're reading this, just think about that for a second. Do you really think that it'd make much sense to say, "you're not eligible for a license, so we CAN'T give you one, because you aren't engaged in the business of selling your ammunition, but we're here to lock you up because even though you're not eligible for a license, you didn't have one."?

If you are manufacturing ammunition and supporting yourself with the sale of it, then it's a different discussion. But if I wanted to sell 50 rounds to my neighbor and it just so happened that he paid me more than I paid for the components, then we might be one step down the continuum from "personal use" and towards "business" but it doesn't follow that the instant you sell a single round of ammunition that you need to be licensed and you're all of a sudden engaged in a business for profit and livelihood.

Everyone in our society wants legal questions to have clear answers but they rarely ever do. But the answer to whether someone who sells a single round of ammunition on a single occasion and otherwise only uses his press for personal use is guilty of manufacturing without a license is FAR closer to "no" than it will ever be toward "yes."

If you don't believe me, head down to the courthouse sometime and watch a few trials. Let me know if you see any people doing questionable stuff on the borderline who are getting locked up. I've got news for you--despite the fact that we do lock up a lot of people in this country--the ones who end up locked up definitely belong there in the overwhelming majority of cases, and I'm fairly certain that any of you who sits through a trial or a sentencing hearing will conclude the exact same thing.

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Just because they don't make it a common practice to go after "small potatos" doesn't make it legal. Ruby Ridge was caused by two shotguns being modified without the proper FFL and SOT.

As in a post above, just call them and get it in writing, if they say its OK.

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Just because they don't make it a common practice to go after "small potatos" doesn't make it legal. Ruby Ridge was caused by two shotguns being modified without the proper FFL and SOT.

As in a post above, just call them and get it in writing, if they say its OK.

Just read the FAQ on their website if you think I'm making this up. Like I expressed repeatedly, if you're not "eligible" for a license you cannot be guilty of a regulatory violation for not having the license. And if you're not engaged in the business of manufacturing ammunition for livelihood AND profit, you are not eligible and do not need a license.

And for the record, it IS in writing. Both in Congress' statutes and the CFR.

But don't take my advice, read it for yourself. Or better yet, apply for a license and tell the ATF that you are not wanting to run a business and see if they issue the license.

I wish there were such a thing as a "hobbyist" FFL but unfortunately, there is no such thing.

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But if I wanted to sell 50 rounds to my neighbor and it just so happened that he paid me more than I paid for the components, then we might be one step down the continuum from "personal use" and towards "business" but it doesn't follow that the instant you sell a single round of ammunition that you need to be licensed and you're all of a sudden engaged in a business for profit and livelihood.

If you manufacture something, then your neighbor gives you money for it (regardless of whether it's more or less than it cost you) you have engaged in "commerce". That means you're in business....not one step down the continuum. You have just manufactured without a license. If you have a box of Federal/Win/Rem/Etc ammo, and sell it to a buddy, you didn't manufacture it, so the rules don't apply the same (or at all in this case).

Funny, I'm not on this site for two full months (darnit, not at long as the previous gap), and the first two threads I read happen to have the same handful of people getting into silly debates like this. Now I remember why I only come here when it's absolutely necessary :ph34r:

From Lectlaw:

COMMERCE

The exchange of commodities for commodities. Considered in a legal point of view, it consists in the various agreements which have for their object to facilitate the exchange of the products of the earth or industry of man, with an intent to realize a profit.

In a narrower sense, commerce signifies any reciprocal agreements between two persons by which one delivers to the other a thing, which the latter accepts and for which he pays a consideration. If the consideration be money, it is called a sale; if any other thing than money, it is called exchange or barter.

Edited by G-ManBart
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Maybe I'm just stirring the pot, but the ATF is huge on intent, and from what the letter says "FOR RESALE", if you made the ammo with the intent to sell it, you need a license, if not (ie you intended to use it yourself, but no longer had a use for it or had more than you needed,) the sale would not be looked at in the same manner. I have yet to see the BATF say you do not need a license to do anything, as I think they want the right to "get" anyone they choose to.

I draw this conclusion from my direct conversations with my ATF agent and his response about straw purchases. If you buy a gun with the intent to resell the item and you "intend" to sell the item for profit, then you need an FFL, if not, you just need a background check and fill out their forms. This is why the BATF firearm transfer stuff is just a bunch of crap. You can go into a store in this state, buy a gun, then immediately turn around and sell the gun to anyone that you do not know is a felon (there is no requirement to ask) and that is A OK if your "intent" when you bought the gun was to keep it for yourself. There is no requirement to record the transaction either. If you buy it with the "intent" to sell to someone so they do not have to do the transaction with the FFL, then you are breaking the law. You can also buy a firearm and "gift" it to someone, again intent is the ONLY factor on it being legal or not if the person is not known to be a felon to you.

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major thread drift ahead...

is there such a thing as a victimless crime?

as the previously mentioned Ruby Ridge incident....if I were to take a hacksaw to one of my shotgun barrels, who is the victim?

how is intent determined?

where or who has to prove....the burden of proof to prove without a reasonable doubt?

there was a raid on an ammo manufacturer about a year or two ago, by the ATF. IIRC, the guy was rezising bullets, I think, and using them to make 5.7 ammo. He had some obscene amount of inventory confiscated, and in my opinion, wasn't given due process. Seems to me that the ATF's m.o. is to bankrupt people instead.

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2dz,

What is your position? That it is small potatoes and won't get on the docket, or that it is not illegal?

There's a number of reasons why I can't answer that here. I can say that there is an answer on the ATF's website.

(edited)

Q: Is a person who reloads ammunition required to be licensed as a manufacturer?

Yes, if the person engages in the business of selling or distributing reloads for the purpose of livelihood and profit. No, if the person reloads only for personal use.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a) (i) and 923(a), 27 CFR 478.41]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/manufacturers.html

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Edited by twodownzero
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And once again I would like to remind everyone....(using my friendliest New-Year's-Resolution-compliant posting demeanor)......

It is not a smart idea to look for answers to legal questions on a shooting forum!

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