matgyver Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 http://www.uspsa.org...es/20101106.pdf look on the 5th page took less than 5 minutes maybe you should do more work instead of just demanding answers I appreciate you taking five minutes to find that information. I was not the one wanting to know the salary of the President. What about what we paid for Steel Challenge, did you find those figures? Actually, you were inquisitive as to the prez salary. In my club the Blue Grass Sportsmen League http://bgslinc.com/, we know what the officers make. Actually, only the Secretary has a salary. If there is talk of a major purchase, the members vote on it BEFORE the purchase is made. How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the 'BOD' to hide how much their their individual salaries are? How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the BOD NOT allow the members to voice their opinion on a major purchase, such as the Steel Challenge? Even after the purchase of the Steel Challenge, the members have not been told the cost. How can this be? A.T., with all due respect -- the board members are not paid, they are volunteers..... As far as what the individual folks in the USPSA office are being paid -- Rob made an excellent point above. There are valid human resource management principles involved in keeping those individual numbers, and performance reviews private. (Really -- if there were a problem there, we should be looking to replace the Executive Director, who's hired in part to oversee those issues.) Now -- finding out what the staff costs in total, how much their salaries increased over last year, etc -- maybe.... Nik, I appreciate the tone of your reply. I still wonder about the secrecy behind the salary of the President, and the purchase of Steel Challenge. This information should be made available to the membership, via the web site. Also, the members IMO, have the right to see ALL expenses, since it's their money being spent. Spent wisely, or foolishly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Actually, you were inquisitive as to the prez salary. Yes, I and others were inquisitive about the Presidents salary. I think a lot of members would like to see the BOD minutes of the discussion and eventual purchase of Steel Challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 Not to derail any members thoughts on this, but maybe the Steel Challenge comments and salary discussions, which have nothing to do with the December, 2011 BOD meeting, could find their way to another topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 22, 2012 Author Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) In my club the Blue Grass Sportsmen League http://bgslinc.com/, we know what the officers make. Actually, only the Secretary has a salary. If there is talk of a major purchase, the members vote on it BEFORE the purchase is made. How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the 'BOD' to hide how much their their individual salaries are? How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the BOD NOT allow the members to voice their opinion on a major purchase, such as the Steel Challenge? Even after the purchase of the Steel Challenge, the members have not been told the cost. How can this be? The BOD doesn't make anything. We're all unpaid. The President is the only votin member with a salary. Nobody is hiding anything about the BOD salary Yes chuck, I didn't mean BOD, I meant people at the USPSA that draw a salary such as the Prez. I do agree that we don't need to know what Val makes and the office staff. What we could know is say that office scale is from XX to XX. Hell, the way it is now I don't even know how many draw a salary or what the total of that money is... It's time for the board to be a little more transparent. I hope the, we bought it and you don't need to know the details or what we paid mentality left with our outgoing Prez. Best, JT JT, Not to drag this thread out any longer, but I didn't say you meant anything. I didn't address or quote you. I quoted AT and his assertion that the BOD was somehow concealing our salaries. An assertion that is completely without merit. Edited January 22, 2012 by Chuck Anderson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. Edited January 22, 2012 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. As I remember it, Limited and Limited 10 were in essence no electronic sights, no comps, and 140 mm magazines. Everything else was good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Why should we know what salaries USPSA's paid positions receive? We pay a fee to join the club. We get value for that fee. If the value isn't worth the fee, we are all free to leave. Do you know how much the CEO of your car maker's company earns? Do you know how much the CEO of your electric company earns? Does it matter to you? Why? Do you consider yourself a "shareholder" in USPSA? Or do you consider yourself a "customer" of USPSA? Or both? Or neither? If you have little faith in the decision making capabilities of USPSA's BoD, maybe you need to either run for a position on the BoD or find another organization to join. IMO, $40 (or less) a year gives no one the right to challenge the integrity of the BoD unless there is some evidence of wrong doing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. As I remember it, Limited and Limited 10 were in essence no electronic sights, no comps, and 140 mm magazines. Everything else was good to go. And yet, they ban magnets in production & single stack..... Go figure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Long story short, non profit (501 c 3) organizations have their IRS Form 990 tax returns made public as a matter of law. What the companies pay their employees is listed in those returns. I am a nosey *$%^er, so I also look to see what the Prez of the American Red Cross, United Way, Salvation Army, Ducks Unlimited, the NRA, my alumni assocation, etc are making. I have enough hands in my pockets as it is. If somebody comes to me asking for a donation, the first thing I do is see what the Prez of that organization is making... "Hmmmn...maybe instead of asking me for a $10/$100/$1,000 donation, the Prez/CEO could take a $80,000 per year pay cut." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Why should we know what salaries USPSA's paid positions receive? Why not? This is not a private organization. The members are the owners. We have a right to know how our money is spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 IANAM (I am not a moderator), but has this thread become "All things USPSA"? It seems to me that we've covered the original issue and maybe need a couple of new threads to cover all the disparate things being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 In my club the Blue Grass Sportsmen League http://bgslinc.com/, we know what the officers make. Actually, only the Secretary has a salary. If there is talk of a major purchase, the members vote on it BEFORE the purchase is made. How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the 'BOD' to hide how much their their individual salaries are? How in the world, can the USPSA members allow the BOD NOT allow the members to voice their opinion on a major purchase, such as the Steel Challenge? Even after the purchase of the Steel Challenge, the members have not been told the cost. How can this be? The BOD doesn't make anything. We're all unpaid. The President is the only votin member with a salary. Nobody is hiding anything about the BOD salary Yes chuck, I didn't mean BOD, I meant people at the USPSA that draw a salary such as the Prez. I do agree that we don't need to know what Val makes and the office staff. What we could know is say that office scale is from XX to XX. Hell, the way it is now I don't even know how many draw a salary or what the total of that money is... It's time for the board to be a little more transparent. I hope the, we bought it and you don't need to know the details or what we paid mentality left with our outgoing Prez. Best, JT JT, Not to drag this thread out any longer, but I didn't say you meant anything. I didn't address or quote you. I quoted AT and his assertion that the BOD was somehow concealing our salaries. An assertion that is completely without merit. Right on both accounts Chuck... JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Why should we know what salaries USPSA's paid positions receive? We pay a fee to join the club. We get value for that fee. If the value isn't worth the fee, we are all free to leave. Do you know how much the CEO of your car maker's company earns? Do you know how much the CEO of your electric company earns? Does it matter to you? Why? Do you consider yourself a "shareholder" in USPSA? Or do you consider yourself a "customer" of USPSA? Or both? Or neither? If you have little faith in the decision making capabilities of USPSA's BoD, maybe you need to either run for a position on the BoD or find another organization to join. IMO, $40 (or less) a year gives no one the right to challenge the integrity of the BoD unless there is some evidence of wrong doing. Why? Because we pay the bills, I like to know what, who and why. when I pay my bills. There's no malice, I just like to know to whom and how much I pay.,,, blank checks to employees doesn't sit will with me. JT Edited January 23, 2012 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I disagree with the folks who think just because they pay their dues they get to know everything. If information is made public, fine. Do what Chills does and look it up. If you think anyone is getting rich off your $40 a year, well, I don't know what to tell you. IMO, you either get value for your membership fee or you don't. If you do, fine. If you don't, leave. We already know what Voigt got and what Phil will start at. If you want the task of handling DNROI duties, have at it. My bet is he's under paid. As another poster already mentioned, individual salaries of employees at Sedro have no business being made public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Why? Because we pay the bills, I like to know what, who and why. when I pay my bills. There's no malice, I just like to know to whom and how much I pay.,,, blank checks to employees doesn't sit will with me. JT And includes what we paid for Steel Challenge. Edited January 23, 2012 by atbarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Has there been any response from the BOD, why the members can't know the full details of the purchase of Steel Challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. As I remember it, Limited and Limited 10 were in essence no electronic sights, no comps, and 140 mm magazines. Everything else was good to go. And yet, they ban magnets in production & single stack..... Go figure... Each Division has its own set of specific rules. Magnets are allowed in 4 of the 6 Divisions, comps are allowed in 1, electronic sights are allowed in 1, Production and Single Stack have weight limits and must fit in the box just to name a few. I didn't think magnets belonged in Production and Single Stack and voted for the prohibition. I also voted to reduce the restrictions on Limited and L-10 so it is not always a one way street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. As I remember it, Limited and Limited 10 were in essence no electronic sights, no comps, and 140 mm magazines. Everything else was good to go. And yet, they ban magnets in production & single stack..... Go figure... Each Division has its own set of specific rules. Magnets are allowed in 4 of the 6 Divisions, comps are allowed in 1, electronic sights are allowed in 1, Production and Single Stack have weight limits and must fit in the box just to name a few. I didn't think magnets belonged in Production and Single Stack and voted for the prohibition. I also voted to reduce the restrictions on Limited and L-10 so it is not always a one way street. So, they even legal in revo...... I wonder if I shoot a revo in production if they would be legal.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrumpyOne Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I can deal with the ban, if it isn't reversed.... Just think it really has nothing to do with the gun, and I thought production was about the gun..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveU Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 I can deal with the ban, if it isn't reversed.... Just think it really has nothing to do with the gun, and I thought production was about the gun..... ...and the mag position on the belt... And the holster.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 so uh, why no magnets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 On the production 3 pound rule, my vote changed because of member input, plain and simple. Now I see stuff here on gas pedals on limited guns. The only change we made to limited was to eliminate the 500 produced requirement. How does that translate to gas pedals being legal? Before you answer please read line 22 in appendix D2-Limited division in the rules. Looks like line 22 isn't there in the revision. http://www.USPSA.org...ed_Division.pdf For us where not present at the BoD meeting, it looks like 21 and 22 were dropped because for the minutes of the meeting (emphasis mine): Handgun Rule Updates Motion: Approve changes to Limited Division as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: Pres Seconded A4 Passed Motion: Approve changes to Limited 10 as presented effective January 1, 2013 Moved: A1 Seconded A2 Passed Based on the link matgyver posted above, it looks like what was presented to BoD. Since what was approved by the BoD is missing 21 and 22, one is lead to conclude that gas pedals and barrel weights will be legal in Limited and Limited 10. As I remember it, Limited and Limited 10 were in essence no electronic sights, no comps, and 140 mm magazines. Everything else was good to go. And yet, they ban magnets in production & single stack..... Go figure... Each Division has its own set of specific rules. Magnets are allowed in 4 of the 6 Divisions, comps are allowed in 1, electronic sights are allowed in 1, Production and Single Stack have weight limits and must fit in the box just to name a few. I didn't think magnets belonged in Production and Single Stack and voted for the prohibition. I also voted to reduce the restrictions on Limited and L-10 so it is not always a one way street. So, they even legal in revo...... I wonder if I shoot a revo in production if they would be legal.... So are race holsters, ammo in front, heavily modified guns, etc. Production and Single Stack have limits. That's why their description take up multiple pages, more so than the descriptions for Open, Limited and L10 combined. And in answer to your question, no they would not be legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 23, 2012 Author Share Posted January 23, 2012 Has there been any response from the BOD, why the members can't know the full details of the purchase of Steel Challenge? Yes, repeatedly, and posted for the last several years. I'm not going to tie up more of this thread though to discuss something that doesn't belong here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atbarr Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 Has there been any response from the BOD, why the members can't know the full details of the purchase of Steel Challenge? Yes, repeatedly, and posted for the last several years. I'm not going to tie up more of this thread though to discuss something that doesn't belong here. Since I've only been a member since '08, where can I find the information, that shows what we paid for Steel Challenge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matgyver Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Has there been any response from the BOD, why the members can't know the full details of the purchase of Steel Challenge? Yes, repeatedly, and posted for the last several years. I'm not going to tie up more of this thread though to discuss something that doesn't belong here. Since I've only been a member since '08, where can I find the information, that shows what we paid for Steel Challenge? This may answer your first question....I've not read the whole thread. Google search: "uspsa steel challenge purchase enos" ----> Voila: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=57387&st=-25 Edit to add: Interestingly enough, the acquisition of SC happened around the same time USPSA drafted a set of guidelines on accepting gifts from individuals and businesses. Maybe there is more to the deal than a simple purchase? I was a Benos Forum member long before I became a USPSA member or competitive shooter. Because of this I decided to search out and read about the organization (USPSA) and it's past to better understand it's roots and changes over time. Log onto the USPSA member services page and read all the BOD meeting minutes (phone, Internet, and in-person) and you will gain a wealth of information. One fun fact that I learned there was that the 3lb trigger pull in production was presented and voted on years ago and defeated 5-3 if memory serves me right. Main difference in that motion to the Dec. 2011 motion was that there was also wording in affect to the testing and training required for the new rule. Edited January 23, 2012 by matgyver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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