USPSA BOD Meeting

[BritinUSA]

Just a question; Have the two new BOD members taken office yet, or did the vote comprise three people who will not be in office at the start of the year ?

Just curious

[JFlowers]

Rob,

While your correct that a simple fixed weight test reduces the administration of the test, think about the safety aspect of what you are proposing. To point a gun skyward and lift a weight from a table that may or may not pull the trigger. Do we really want that kind of a test to become part of USPSA's normal match procedures, rather than a muzzle towards the berm type test??

That aside, I will let those who actually shoot Production comment on the other aspects of the rule.

[MarkCO]

Just a question; Have the two new BOD members taken office yet, or did the vote comprise three people who will not be in office at the start of the year ?

Just curious

Kyle and Strader (as A4) were both there in person according to the documents.

[sdm74]

The trigger test is easy.

3 # weight with a wire. The gun can pick it up without firing or it can't.

How would that work? If its a 3# requirement the weight would have to be less then 3 pounds

[Nik Habicht]

Just a question; Have the two new BOD members taken office yet, or did the vote comprise three people who will not be in office at the start of the year ?

Just curious

This was the existing Board. The newly elected folks are not in their (new) offices yet.....

[waktasz]

The trigger test is easy.

3 # weight with a wire. The gun can pick it up without firing or it can't.

How would that work? If its a 3# requirement the weight would have to be less then 3 pounds

Thank you.

[Gary Stevens]

Trigger pull limit? Why?

Chuck and I voted against it, but we lost

Not sure anyone cares who voted for/against, but the board's reasoning behind the rule would definitely be appreciated. There very well may be a legit reason. The minutes contain nothing in the way of an explanation for the rule.

What I was trying to say was perhaps you should directly ask one of the folks who voted for it to explain their vote.

[vluc]

It will probably be a format similar to what IPSC uses to measure trigger pull. Have to see that format for USPSA in action first before commenting further.

We can't seem to get production shooters to know where their hip-bones are, how to find that center of the trigger for the test to be conducted from ought to be fun, unless there is going to be a different measuring point for the variety of production guns.

Not a big fan of the idea.

FWIW, I shoot production 99 and 44/100 percent of the time.

Edited December 23, 2011 by vluc

[RIIID]

Reminds me of new EPA regulations. Just going to cost Clubs more money.

What is going to be the "blessed" trigger pull testing tool.

How do make sure every chrono staff worker measures the same way.

Weighing a gun and putting it in the box is a no brainer. Trigger testing=Not!

With the proper gauge it is - provided the competitor is the one who conducts the measurement in the presence of the chrono officer. It's easy - "Lift this fixed weight off the table while the hook on the weight rests on your trigger".

While I speak only for myself, I agree on the issue of "staff workers measuring the same way" - which is why I will push to either have the competitor do the actual measurement, or be given the opportunity to repeat the measurement (and pass) if it does not pass when the chrono officer does it.

Rob it doesn't work that way with triggers that operate off of a mechanical lever, the further down on the trigger the lighter it will be and heavier closer to the the pivot point. If the shooter does it they can lift it closer to the pivot and pass while it is lighter at the point where they pull the trigger. Some trigger profiles/safety shoes won't allow a pull from the center, the scale will slide off center and give a lighter pull. A proper gauge will have to be created that will test all of the different guns the same and be equal. I don't know of a gauge that will do it. I had a gun come in the shop for a tune up that was used at the B. Cup this year, it passed their gauge but it was way under their min. with three of my gauges.

From the beginning trigger work has been allowed, if the intent was to use bone stock guns then no modifications should have been allowed from day one. We are 11 years into this Division and it is one of the most popular ones we have and now you want to tell the membership the intent wasn't to have sub 3# triggers, you are a little too late. I have done a few thousand trigger jobs that won't pass a 3# pull, a couple of my competitors have done more than I have so that adds another 4 or 5 thousand to the total that probably won't pass.

The train left the station on the first day Production was started, so to create rules that are closer to the intent it was supposed to be on day one just doesn't work. The intent is gone, what we have right NOW is what the BOD needs to deal with not what was intended.

Rich

[Avezorak]

Reminds me of new EPA regulations. Just going to cost Clubs more money.

What is going to be the "blessed" trigger pull testing tool.

How do make sure every chrono staff worker measures the same way.

Weighing a gun and putting it in the box is a no brainer. Trigger testing=Not!

With the proper gauge it is - provided the competitor is the one who conducts the measurement in the presence of the chrono officer. It's easy - "Lift this fixed weight off the table while the hook on the weight rests on your trigger".

While I speak only for myself, I agree on the issue of "staff workers measuring the same way" - which is why I will push to either have the competitor do the actual measurement, or be given the opportunity to repeat the measurement (and pass) if it does not pass when the chrono officer does it.

Rob it doesn't work that way with triggers that operate off of a mechanical lever, the further down on the trigger the lighter it will be and heavier closer to the the pivot point. If the shooter does it they can lift it closer to the pivot and pass while it is lighter at the point where they pull the trigger. Some trigger profiles/safety shoes won't allow a pull from the center, the scale will slide off center and give a lighter pull. A proper gauge will have to be created that will test all of the different guns the same and be equal. I don't know of a gauge that will do it. I had a gun come in the shop for a tune up that was used at the B. Cup this year, it passed their gauge but it was way under their min. with three of my gauges.

From the beginning trigger work has been allowed, if the intent was to use bone stock guns then no modifications should have been allowed from day one. We are 11 years into this Division and it is one of the most popular ones we have and now you want to tell the membership the intent wasn't to have sub 3# triggers, you are a little too late. I have done a few thousand trigger jobs that won't pass a 3# pull, a couple of my competitors have done more than I have so that adds another 4 or 5 thousand to the total that probably won't pass.

The train left the station on the first day Production was started, so to create rules that are closer to the intent it was supposed to be on day one just doesn't work. The intent is gone, what we have right NOW is what the BOD needs to deal with not what was intended.

Rich

I agree 100% with Rich. Seems a little late to change something so major.

[sdm74]

Id like to know the genius that put this on the floor for a vote. I have a hard time testing the weight of my m&p trigger

[RIIID]

It's time for the membership to voice their disapproval of the useless 3# rule for Production. This needs to be overturned before it goes into effect, this will simply be a nightmare for the chrono stage to test the varies triggers that are used. If a pull weight is good for Production then it should be just fine for the rest of the Divivsions, 3# straight across for all. Quit screwing with a Division that is working and popular, the Pres started this and does he even shoot Production. How many BOD members actually shoot Prod., do they even understand what they are doing.

Rich

obviously people with a financial interest in this wont like this new rule, but what part of the "production" division should people have to get $140 dollar trigger jobs to be competitive

I will be doing the same amount of triggers at 3# as I'm doing right now that are lighter, it's not just the weight, it's the shortening of the movement of the trigger most people want. Money doesn't have anything to do with me being opposed to it. It doesn't solve any problems with Production it just creates problems.

Rich

[aztecdriver]

I gotta admit - I don't like it. I know the intent, Rob, but I just don't like the complexity it adds to the gotcha factor. All it takes is to show up at a major when the chrono officer thinks he knows the right way to test weight and hangs it from the tip. I'm going to have to see where mine break. Looks like I may have to give up production.

[vluc]

With the proper gauge it is - provided the competitor is the one who conducts the measurement in the presence of the chrono officer. It's easy - "Lift this fixed weight off the table while the hook on the weight rests on your trigger".

While I speak only for myself, I agree on the issue of "staff workers measuring the same way" - which is why I will push to either have the competitor do the actual measurement, or be given the opportunity to repeat the measurement (and pass) if it does not pass when the chrono officer does it.

Rob, if we do go down the path of trigger pull weight, any format created should be automatic and without human intervention. Not trying to be argumentative here, just asking questions. How far from the table do I have to have the gun lifted? How long do I have to have the weight on - is it like a bull rider getting 8 seconds?

IF you go down this path it needs to be a procedure that anyone can do anytime/anywhere with repeatable results, and should include an appeal process - just like the chrono process has. Specific setups and calibrations, insurance that the device is within tolerance -again, just like the chronograph requires certain things. Remember that the chrono mfgs also stipulate how the chrono should be setup for optimal results, how far apart certain parts should be, etc.

[Chuck Anderson]

The BOD decided, and whether I agreed at the time or not the majority voted the rule change in. It wasn't even a close vote, which really did surprise me. As much as I would love to see it go away I don't think it will. Instead, how about some ideas on how to implement it. That was one thing left open, and we have some time. My thought is to use the IPSC trigger pull strategy they detail in the appendix of their rule book. Anyone have any experience with how well it works?

This is the first I've heard of allowing the competitor to do the trigger pull test themselves and I would strongly oppose that. Way too many variables and the way Rob described it would be violating the vertical 180 in the hands of a competitor. I don't see a reason to compromise safety rules for this. Does anyone have any other ways of doing it?

As to the other post about the limited rules, yes 6" Sighttrackers would be legal. If you want to shoot a one of a kind 9" barreled, gas operated handbuilt pistol that doesn't have a comp or optic, go for it.

[BritinUSA]

I'll make a prediction here; Come January, 2013 this rule will not be in effect.

[GlockOp]

I'll let the more experienced discuss this, but I have 2 new XDm 5.25's with identical triggers. Both less than 3#. There is a cost involved and it would be nice to understand why this was done.

[Rotwang]

Rob, if we do go down the path of trigger pull weight, any format created should be automatic and without human intervention. Not trying to be argumentative here, just asking questions. How far from the table do I have to have the gun lifted? How long do I have to have the weight on - is it like a bull rider getting 8 seconds?

IF you go down this path it needs to be a procedure that anyone can do anytime/anywhere with repeatable results, and should include an appeal process - just like the chrono process has. Specific setups and calibrations, insurance that the device is within tolerance -again, just like the chronograph requires certain things. Remember that the chrono mfgs also stipulate how the chrono should be setup for optimal results, how far apart certain parts should be, etc.

The NRA checks the trigger weight on a lot of bullseye, international, and Bianchi guns. I don't know about PPC. All guns shot in a CMP Leg match are supposed to be weighed before shooting. ISU Guns used in international shooting (that's not IPSC) get measured all the time. There's a lot of history and procedures there already.

I think the real argument is whether or not to weigh them at all.

[ChuckS]

More FYI

This is from the 2009 IPSC rulebook

APPENDIX F2 Trigger Pull Testing Procedure

When a minimum trigger pull is required by a Division, handguns will be tested as

follows:

1. The unloaded handgun will be prepared as if the handgun is ready to fire a

double action shot;

2. The trigger weight or scale will be attached as closely as possible to the

center of the trigger face;

3. The trigger of the handgun must either:

(a) Raise and hold a 2.27 kg (5lbs) weight when the muzzle of the

handgun is pointed vertically skywards and the handgun is gently

raised, or

(B ) Register not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) on a scale using the procedure

specified by the Range Master;

4. One of the above tests will be conducted a maximum of 3 times;

5. If the hammer or striker does not fall on any 1 of the 3 attempts in 3(a)

above, or if the scale registers not less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( B ) above, the

handgun has passed the test.

6. If the hammer or striker falls on all three (3) attempts in 3(a) above, or if the

scale registers less than 2.27 kg (5lbs) in 3( B ) above, the handgun has failed

the test and Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply.

edited to remove the inappropriate smileys

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChuckS

[driver8M3]

it's almost comical the way the production rules get messed with just about every year.

i'm sure all the new shooters we're trying to bring into production really like trying to figure out the new production rules every year.

[Paul Burtchell]

I'll make a prediction here; Come January, 2013 this rule will not be in effect.

+1

[BritinUSA]

Production division is a fast growing division within USPSA, changing something that is clearly working seems strange to me. The issues with measurement are one concern, another is the fact that trigger pull will vary from one match to another. A tiny drop of oil dropping down into the trigger mechanism can change a 3+ pull to 2.9 or lower, and there is nothing the shooter can do about it, because until the weight is applied at that specific point in the match they won't be able to detect it.

Trigger pull will change as components wear (including springs). There was a proposal at the IPSC GA to check the trigger weight for 2nd shots (i.e. single -action) and it was rejected, there was a lot of discussion about it on the Global Village as people posted how much their trigger weight had changed, without any gunsmithing, just wear and tear.

Check your trigger weight at the start of the match with a clean gun and check half-way through the match at the chrono and it could be different.

This is a can of worms that is better left unopened.

[Rotwang]

Check your trigger weight at the start of the match with a clean gun and check half-way through the match at the chrono and it could be different.

The NRA only checks weights before the shooting starts unless the shooter sets a national record. Then the trigger still has to pass the weight check.

Every year at the Leg matches at Camp Perry there are guns that won't make weight without a shot of brake cleaner to clean the oil from the hammer and sear. Then the armorer will warn them not to oil anything until after the referees get done with the spot checks on the line.

[MarkCO]

There are "remote" triggers available that use a plunger and ram that is a cylinder moving straight back. I'm pretty sure my club won't be buying one, but USPSA could certainly spend the money to buy a few for Area and National Matches. We don't chrono at local matches either, and we all know those few who have sub-major loads declaring major. It will be a little bit of a challenge, but doable. Chuck, if you don't want competitors with muzzles verticle, I certainly don't want ROs doing that either. So that objection and the fact that hanging a weight really won't cut it since trigger pulls are dynamic. Remember F=ma. I'd say that technically, the way the rule is currently written is unenforceable based on the physical laws. The trigger pull weight will have to be defined as either "pound-mass" (static, which is really impossible in this case) or "pound-force" (dynamic). That means that the trigger test procedure, as written, WILL require a non-human applied force at a given rate. A Ransom rest with a trigger actuator could eliminate the chrono altogehter and test the trigger pull at the same time...expensive!

Simplest way I can thing of to test this simply (provided "weight" is properly defined), repeatedly and without the dynamic requirement would be a platform with a magazine insert (would need several for different types of pistols) and a inverted balance (to keep the muzzle horizontal) with 2.9 pounds of weight. The tester gently moves the lever with a round ram onto the trigger, moves hand away, and if it does not break, it passes. The assembly would need to be on the ground or one of the concrete benches. This would techncially allow people to test their own at home with 3.0 pounds hanging vertically and be assured if it passes that, it will pass the "big" test. Could probably be fabricated for a few hundred dollars plus another few hundred dollars for a bunch of polymer mag inserts. Certainly less than a chrono and a lot less than a Ransom. It's only one division of 6, so what, 10-30% of an area match, and likely no more than 40% of Nationals?

So short answer, NOT actually measuring the pull where the pistol fires, but rather a static measurement just below the threshold is the best solution.

Not saying I like it, just responding to Chuck's request.

[Loves2Shoot]

It's time for the membership to voice their disapproval of the useless 3# rule for Production. This needs to be overturned before it goes into effect, this will simply be a nightmare for the chrono stage to test the varies triggers that are used. If a pull weight is good for Production then it should be just fine for the rest of the Divivsions, 3# straight across for all. Quit screwing with a Division that is working and popular, the Pres started this and does he even shoot Production. How many BOD members actually shoot Prod., do they even understand what they are doing.

Rich

obviously people with a financial interest in this wont like this new rule, but what part of the "production" division should people have to get $140 dollar trigger jobs to be competitive

So you are saying that you believe the myth that you need a trigger job to be competitive?

The ruling makes no sense to me, because there is no way it can be applied fairly and evenly. We've done many thousands of triggers on guns that WERE Production legal, and telling folks they can't bring their gun to a USPSA competition and shoot it will just feed those shooters into "other" similar sports. The percentage of people who are avid competition shooters is TINY, I mean if I had to chose between doing work for competition shooters and gun enthusiasts, bye bye competition shooters, they are few and far between.

Adding the rule will do what to improve the division? Maybe it will increase the number of pissed off people who have their trigger spring go weak and weigh in at 2.99.

If this change is a result of "new management" then I hate to see what the future of USPSA is. Making the sport simpler would seem to make a ton more sense, than making it harder for competitors to follow the rules and for match administrators to run the match.

Real life is competitors will dork with their trigger, go to a match and have measure out differently and get bumped out of the division OR they will have their trigger job done and it will wear over time and then one day it goes sub 3#, ruining their day. For what good? To perpetuate the myth that a trigger under 3# gives you an advantage? You would think a room full of smart guys would know better, and it only sounds like 2 did.

I guess it would be good for people who sell NRA scales, but that is about it.

PS. Be honest, how many shots are the first one in a match? If you want to be "fair" make the CZ guys measure from single action and watch the response from the guys who spend bank on custom Production guns.

Edited December 23, 2011 by Loves2Shoot