USPSA BOD Meeting

[MarkCO]

Any follow-up on that trigger system discussion? If I buy the trigger from Springfield, then it's OEM and therefore legal under D4 21.6, but if I buy it directly from supplier for Springfield will it be considered aftermarket and therefore illegal under the same rule?

Bingo, you just discovered the problem we were trying to fix.

However, this horse has not yet run a race, I think (?) The Springfield, S&W and Glock platforms all have aluminum aftermarket triggers that improve on the trigger, but they also change geometry. It would seem to me that (excpet for the companies that would profit from OEM slae of their aftermakret parts) there would be some good membership support for disallowing aftermarket AND OEM offered parts that change the geometry. So if one of those companies wants to come out with a "new" gun and make 2,000 of them, fine. Otherwise it is purely an end-around, or loophole a company has decided to go through fostered by profit.

I also think the 3# first shot rule in production would give a benefit to DA/SA platforms down the road, even if only for perceptions sake.

If you go back and look at the rulings and rule changes w.r.t. Production, this currently sitting BOD (for the most part) did not create or make most of the rule changes. Voight (who will have no real vote on the issue) is leaving and was on the BOD since the inception of Production. However, the vast majority of the rulings in Production people here are complaining about and comparing/contrasting vs the 3# rule, were in fact ruled upon by Amidon, not the BOD. I've already made a recomendation to my AD that any rule change or interpretation made by the DNROI be ratified by the BOD (maybe they already are and I could not find it). I'm not faulting Amidon, but more the process. I have no idea if that recomendation is feasible, but "executive orders" appeal less to me than a vote of the elected BOD.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[RippSpeed]

I still agree with the trigger pull weight... Without bringing the skill to the table. Because if its truely the "Indian and not the arrow" analogy. The bad ass Indian can adapt to any trigger pull...

I'm in the minority on the voting because I agree to it... It levels the playing field when it comes to gear... Like I said before not all pistol on the approve list have the aftermarket support to even get the trigger pull close to the 3lb first shot. I know I bring up HK's because of my past experience... HK with a $120 dollar match trigger kit still only 4.5 to 5lb SA and 7.5lb DA ... To get it lower your have to spend considerably more to get to 3lbs SA.

[mhop]

how many people that are complaining about the new rule have actually weighed there guns triggers (only 2 people did on this tread so far) i would be surprised if just polishing lowered your trigger below 3lbs. those that are for sure below are custom trigger jobs sent to a shop that cost at least $150

1. Would your perspective change if is was 5lbs...for ALL shots in Production? 4lbs?

2. We could make that same argument for all the divisions...and apply 90% of the "reasons" that are being made for Production.

1. yes, all shots at a minimum weight would be singling out a specific mode of firing (like NRA action pistol did) DA/SA

2.not sure about that one the other divisions are not for "entry level" and supposed to be "production" guns

i see where you are going with this, does DNORI have to make a ruling on every specific part that is made for the numerous model's of guns that competitiors will be trying to improve? at some point a minimum trigger pull makes sense. but if we opened it up to a minimum pull of say 3lbs and you can change parts willie nillie it would not be production anymore it would be limited lite. would making a new division with only stock guns and parts make more sense?

[Gary Stevens]

Been shooting a Glock with a $50 home trigger job for a long time, it's pretty light I hate to think I have to go backwards on that gun.

The thing that is disturbing is that at least one AD didnt know this was coming and from outward appearances was rammed through. What was the rush, crisis, etc?

Make that two AD's. This is an idea that has been just below the surface for some time now. The trigger weight idea has been voted on at least once and maybe twice, losing both times. This time it reared its head during a discussion of the XDM trigger system and shazzam it was passed 7-2.

Any follow-up on that trigger system discussion? If I buy the trigger from Springfield, then it's OEM and therefore legal under D4 21.6, but if I buy it directly from supplier for Springfield will it be considered aftermarket and therefore illegal under the same rule?

I asked this exact question, and if I remember correctly, in 2013 it will not matter what you do to your trigger as long as it weighs 3 lbs minimum.

That would be in contradiction to a previous rule or ruling, I believe. (ie... a factory custom shop has to follow the same rules as a guy smithing in joes garage...the part has to be in an approved model, first, before it can be used)

I left wondering where that stood. It wasn't voted on per the meeting minutes, right?

No vote, and I would assume a rule clean up would have to follow. After the vote I asked something to the effect of "so now anything you do to a trigger is OK as long as it weighs 3 lb?" I can't remember who answered but the answer was yes, if my memory serves.

[Flexmoney]

I have an SP01, Comp hammer and trigger done by Angus, measures out around 6.5#/3#.

I shoot Production almost exclusively. And yes, I think the rule is bogus and how it was voted on/approved is even more bogus. And my gun would be legal no matter how you slice it. Still just a dumb rule.

Comp hammer?

Be extra weary of the motion that was pasted just after the trigger pull motion. (The more I think about that one , the more I think it hurts USPSA and it's members.)

Motion: BOD will continue to clarify Production rules to support the

purpose of the division

Moved: A4 Seconded A1 Passed

That one leaves the back door open. ??

[Strick]

I just find it a bit disheartening that a BOD that is mostly made of people that do not and have never competed in Prod are going to decide the intent and purpose of that division.

Seems that maybe a BOD for each Division would be a better way to go than have a the fate of production be decided by Open shooters.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Strick

[Steve J]

Maybe not a BoD for each Division, but certainly a rules committee and/or at least a review and comment period before any decision is voted on and passed would not be too much to ask.

[Flexmoney]

2.not sure about that one the other divisions are not for "entry level" and supposed to be "production" guns

I'm kinda thinking Limited was intended to be...limited. (to paraphase another)

I know we have the word Practical in our title. Shouldn't our guns be "practical"?

[Steve J]

2.not sure about that one the other divisions are not for "entry level" and supposed to be "production" guns

I'm kinda thinking Limited was intended to be...limited. (to paraphase another)

I know we have the word Practical in our title. Shouldn't our guns be "practical"?

Sure, but then you have no way to explain open guns and magazine placement in all but production and 1911 SS. Practical lost meaning years ago.

[Strick]

Steve, I agree BoD was not the right term but a rules committee that would handle rules for the respective divisions sounds like a good idea.

[sperman]

I have an SP01, Comp hammer and trigger done by Angus, measures out around 6.5#/3#.

I shoot Production almost exclusively. And yes, I think the rule is bogus and how it was voted on/approved is even more bogus. And my gun would be legal no matter how you slice it. Still just a dumb rule.

Comp hammer?

Be extra weary of the motion that was pasted just after the trigger pull motion. (The more I think about that one , the more I think it hurts USPSA and it's members.)

Motion: BOD will continue to clarify Production rules to support the

purpose of the division

Moved: A4 Seconded A1 Passed

That one leaves the back door open. ??

I wonder how long it will be before we read about the motion to eliminate metric targets.

[Chills1994]

I have an SP01, Comp hammer and trigger done by Angus, measures out around 6.5#/3#.

I shoot Production almost exclusively. And yes, I think the rule is bogus and how it was voted on/approved is even more bogus. And my gun would be legal no matter how you slice it. Still just a dumb rule.

Comp hammer?

Be extra weary of the motion that was pasted just after the trigger pull motion. (The more I think about that one , the more I think it hurts USPSA and it's members.)

Motion: BOD will continue to clarify Production rules to support the

purpose of the division

Moved: A4 Seconded A1 Passed

That one leaves the back door open. ??

That is exactly what I was alluding to about 3 pages back when I asked where I could find this spirit or purpose of the Production division spelled out....and if there was other word-age for Limited, Open, etc.

[Flexmoney]

Maybe not a BoD for each Division, but certainly a rules committee and/or at least a review and comment period before any decision is voted on and passed would not be too much to ask.

There is a rules committee. I'll be on it next year. But, in this light, I'm not so sure what it's current purpose is. (There wasn't a recommendation from committee on this, that I am aware of.)

Edit to add... I want to clarify that I didn't mean that in a smartassed way. I really thought something like this would fall under the rules committee.

[Chills1994]

I have an SP01, Comp hammer and trigger done by Angus, measures out around 6.5#/3#.

I shoot Production almost exclusively. And yes, I think the rule is bogus and how it was voted on/approved is even more bogus. And my gun would be legal no matter how you slice it. Still just a dumb rule.

Comp hammer?

Be extra weary of the motion that was pasted just after the trigger pull motion. (The more I think about that one , the more I think it hurts USPSA and it's members.)

Motion: BOD will continue to clarify Production rules to support the

purpose of the division

Moved: A4 Seconded A1 Passed

That one leaves the back door open. ??

I wonder how long it will be before we read about the motion to eliminate metric targets.

somebody else can MD "my" "club" then.

I'll go be strictly an IDPA shooter then or I will start my own brand of outlaw matches (the Broad Shoulders and Thick Skin shooting league....yay! time plus!)

[Chills1994]

2.not sure about that one the other divisions are not for "entry level" and supposed to be "production" guns

I'm kinda thinking Limited was intended to be...limited. (to paraphase another)

I know we have the word Practical in our title. Shouldn't our guns be "practical"?

Sure, but then you have no way to explain open guns and magazine placement in all but production and 1911 SS. Practical lost meaning years ago.

To the defense of the so called impracticality of red dot equipped Open division style pistols...have you perused the gun periodical rack at your local book seller lately?

I am guessing not a month goes by where I don't see some pistol in flat dark earth colors or duracoat sporting a J-point/dokter/C-more STS/Burris fast fire red dot where the rear iron sight used to be prominently displayed on the cover of said periodicals.

[shootingchef]

Outlaw!

[burningsquirrels]

Outlaw!

outlaw pistol!!!

i'd hit it!

[Chills1994]

RippSpeed wrote:

I still agree with the trigger pull weight... Without bringing the skill to the table. Because if its truely the "Indian and not the arrow" analogy. The bad ass Indian can adapt to any trigger pull...

I'm in the minority on the voting because I agree to it... It levels the playing field when it comes to gear...

As a guy who shoots a Beretta 92 FS originally in Production division and now in Limited at minor PF scoring, I really don't care about leveling of the playing field.

It's a DA first shot. It's a SA for the other shots. I knew that going in when I bought the pistol(s).

I don't use my gun as an excuse or a crutch for my shooting performance.

People beat me because I don't practice. Plain and simple. They put the time in, improve their skills and they beat me because of that...not because their gun has a sub 3 or sub 2 pound trigger pull.

This is a big boy's sport...with expensive big boy toys and ammunition to keep them fed. I wouldn't feel right winning a match somewhere because I was able to handicap other shooters with their striker fired pistols.

[XRe]

Be extra weary

Freudian slip, there?

[XRe]

To the defense of the so called impracticality of red dot equipped Open division style pistols...have you perused the gun periodical rack at your local book seller lately?

In fact, once I solidify a full size carry platform (not certain I'm sold on the M&P I'm currently carrying, yet, just cause of accuracy concerns), I'll be having an RMR and BUIs mounted on it. Now that compact red dot sights are solid enough to take the wear and tear of every day carry, an Open gun is truly the hot carry ticket All the Luddites will hate that, of course, but...

[Flexmoney]

Be extra weary

Freudian slip, there?

LOL... man, my command of the Englich be lacken in this thread.

[LPatterson]

/thread drift/

At the Nationals I happened to be in a bay with 2 Virginia count stages. One stage had metric targets, the other had classic targets. There were full and partial targets on both stages. My observation was that approximately 90% of the DA/SA shooters drew to a full target whereas striker equipped shooters drew to which ever target they wanted to. So maybe the current Production division should be disbanded and replaced with a carry/stock/production division separated into DA/SA and striker fired divisions. With some even crazier rules.

/thread drift off/

[ErichF]

This has been an education for me as to the rulemaking process (or lack thereof) of the USPSA. It seems a bit unorganized, on the surface. I need to sit down and read the organization by-laws to fully understand the process, but bear with me...

I belong to another national club that has about 150,000 members: the Academy of Model Aeronautics. The AMA main purpose is to promote and manage aeromodelling competition. It covers about 100 various modelling disciplines from RC gliders to helicopters to hand thrown free-flight balsa airplanes. To manage all this well, there are committees for each major discipline, and there is a 2 year rules cycle. There is also a system in place for emergency rules changes. During the two year cycle, all members of the AMA are free to submit rule proposals (new, updated, or repeals), after which the Contest Committee for the respective disciplines votes on the proposals with the full knowledge of the membership. Before the vote, anyone in the membership can read the proposal and make comment.

So, what could USPSA benefit from such a rulemakeing system? First, you don't have a BOD making up new rules on the fly. No one can generate and enact a rule outside the standard rulemaking cycle, except emergency proposals. Rules are reviewed by the membership, and there are committees that take note of the comments and vote to adopt or repeal, as the case may be. Generally, nothing like this could happen in a formal rulemaking process, unless it falls under the emergency proposal system. Even if that is the case, there has to be a very good reason to make the change out of cycle (safety related).

So my question to those who know is, how does the USPSA rulemaking process compare to the one I just outlined in the AMA? I surely don't expect USPSA to come up with an entirely new system, but it looks like it could use a few tweaks here and there...

[CocoBolo]

I may be in trouble with my CZ Shadow it will be darn close, I went a bit over the top on it.

I think you missed it, if you are going to go like IPSC then go to their 5# rule. When folks come in from Canada or other furrin countries (missspelled for TX draw) they will be competitive.

Rule Changes always go down hard. Had lots of it in stock cars. I was winning everything, they tore my car down every week, found nothing, then one night the tech inspector happen to notice my engine turned backwards, the torque from the engine put the weight on the left side of the car, letting me run away from everyone coming off the turns. Next week it was illegal. At least this rule change gives you a year to put a heavier main spring in, its not that big of a deal.

[Chills1994]

To the defense of the so called impracticality of red dot equipped Open division style pistols...have you perused the gun periodical rack at your local book seller lately?

In fact, once I solidify a full size carry platform (not certain I'm sold on the M&P I'm currently carrying, yet, just cause of accuracy concerns), I'll be having an RMR and BUIs mounted on it. Now that compact red dot sights are solid enough to take the wear and tear of every day carry, an Open gun is truly the hot carry ticket All the Luddites will hate that, of course, but...

Dave Re = Gecko.45 ???

Who knew?!?!