USPSA BOD Meeting

[Skydiver]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

We only care because D4 21.6 says that aftermarket triggers (mag releases, slide stops, and thumb safeties) are illegal. It would have been a simple solution to just drop the aftermarket restriction. If dropping that restriction will open a can of worms, the alternative is to make DNROI's recent opinion into a ruling: if an aftermarket part satisfies OEM specs, it is considered OEM.

[bobert1]

POWDER RIVER PRECISION folks is the company in question. Here is the trigger link.

PRP Trigger link

Great Guys with a very nice product.

Edited December 28, 2011 by bobert1

[Red_SC]

I don't like that it's giving DA/SA an advantage.

Also don't like that this came out just months after I sent my XDM to Canyon Creek for his 2.5+ lb trigger, guess I'll be spending more money chasing the rules. Or not.

For what it's worth, I carry the XDM. I've never left it home because of the trigger, but a smaller pistol is more practical except during the 4 weeks we can wear a coat here.

[MarkCO]

SNIP if an aftermarket part satisfies OEM specs, it is considered OEM.

That sounds rational. That could/would make the XD, Glock and M&P metal triggers illegal, depending on what, an Amidon ruling? Not the most desireable path IMHO.

Also, I see a lot of people using the term OEM, which NONE of those triggers is, regardless of how PRP and Springfiled choose to label it. If you go look at the automotive world, OEM means something different and the rules bodies define it differently (which should cause pause here). In most auto sports rules, the "limited" and "special" production cars don't get free license. For instance, a "Boss" mustang with the performance suspension and 500+ hp does NOT get to compete in the same class as the "stock" V8 mustang.

Question then is, should those parts be allowed in Production or not. That is a very different question than the 3# issue.

[Chills1994]

Red_SC wrote:

I don't like that it's giving DA/SA an advantage.

If you think that shooting a DA/SA pistol is advantageous...well....

[Nik Habicht]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

We only care because D4 21.6 says that aftermarket triggers (mag releases, slide stops, and thumb safeties) are illegal. It would have been a simple solution to just drop the aftermarket restriction. If dropping that restriction will open a can of worms, the alternative is to make DNROI's recent opinion into a ruling: if an aftermarket part satisfies OEM specs, it is considered OEM.

Right -- I'm familiar with that item. My point was that once an aftermarket product becomes legal via distribution as an OEM option, the simplest solution would be to simply allow the part, regardless of how it is sourced....

[LPatterson]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

I was under the impression that the Powder Valley trigger provided a lighter pull weight sort of like a Glocktrigger.com Edge which is not Production legal. I am not sure what my XD trigger weight might be and I forgot to ask you but it is smOOOOOth.

[Loves2Shoot]

The trigger in question is just that just a trigger. It just has extra material to regulate travel, nothing to do with the pull weight, how it feels, ect. Those things are done with internal parts.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Loves2Shoot

[Jim Norman]

I posted this earlier in the other thread. Should have gone here instead:

I've said it before, I think, Is a crapy 2-1/2 lb trigger better than a really nice 3lb trigger? We are not going to change one damned thing with this rule with regards to an arms race. If my Fantastic Somewhat Plastic Shooter comes out of the box with a crappy 6 lb trigger, I am going to spend every bit as much money to make it a really sweet 3 lb trigger as I would have if I could have made it a 2 lb trigger.

The Manufacturers are going to start building to the rule, just as they always have in every sport. Soon your 'Out of the box' $475 G17 shooter will find himself shooting against an 'Out of the box' $ 1200.00 G17U, a gun with all the bells and whistles the current rule allows. It will have different sights, and a really good trigger, that becasue of litigation will STILL have the shooter going out and spending more money to have it cleaned up!

This rule is bad law. It needs to go away. It is essentially UNENFORCEABLE as is the rules against internal mods. Weigh the gun and have a minimum gun weight if you must, have a box the gun must fit into if you must. These are things that just about any club can manage. Most shooters can manage this. Trigger pull poundage? Not going to be a level playing field no matter what you do short of having a division where one manufacturer supplies all the guns and the shooters are assigned a gun by double blind random draw.

A DA/SA gun with a 5lb trigger on the first shot is going to have what for the second? 2? 1-1/2? And this is going to make the new shooter feel comfortable? not a chance. As soon as he learns that he can't make his ten shots as smooth and easy as the other guy, he will not be a happy camper.

This rule needs to go. If there are shooters out there that want to shoot their 5 lb triggers, no one is stopping you. If you want to declare this a carry gun division, I have been known to carry a 1911, a Para, a J-frame and a G-26. Which one will fit into 'YOUR' definition of a Carry Gun? And if we really want to make it a carry gun division, then we better think about how the guns would REALLY be worn, no 'I'm not wearing a gun' vests, you have to carry concealed, all your ammo and your gun and since when I carry a full capacity gun, I load it to the full capacity, I think that we need to then do away with the capacity limits. So to reiterate, a large frame person would be able to shoot a full sized gun in this division but a person of small stature would only be able to shoot a very small gun, Hey, let's go all the way and stop dancing around with the semantics.

Production is NOT a Carry Gun Division, not now and not back on day one. It was and is a place to shoot on an equal footing with respect to PF and capacity and where DAO, DA/SA and Striker fired guns can compete without having to shoot against the S*Is and all the super customizations that we have in Open, Limited and L-10.

As others have said, this division in USPSA WORKS! Why, oh why is the BOD intent on screwing it up?

[TGO]

Seriously though, Why is this being done. When the BOD said we couldn't shoot major 9mm because the pressures were unsafe, when we did not set for the sake of competitive equality, limits to magazine capacity (regardless of what that capacity might be) when we keep L10 when there is no reason for it, etc. etc. we see a pattern of not being in touch with the needs of the sport. Rob

Rob,

With respect. L-10 is highly popular and supported in several areas of the country. Saying there is no reason for it is not accurate.

I base this on the siginificant membership feedback I received as AD8 (2007?) when it was speculated that the current (outgoing) President intended to do away with L-10. Perhaps some things have changed since then, but I doubt you would see a passive membership if it were to be removed now. There are a lot of guns out there that can play in L-10 which cannot play in SS.

Yes I understand, but there are no guns that are legal for L10 that are not Legal for limited. And, I may be overlooking someone but, above club level I have seen but 1 shooter in the last few years with a gun in L10 that wouldn't be competitive in Limited. Matter of fact I know of only one shooter who currently is using other than a high capacity limited gun loaded down to 10 rounds. The reason for L10 no longer exist with the addition of SS. I'm Not saying there are no shooters, just that the majority would shoot in limited, with no equipment disadvantage if L10 was not a class. The only reason left is for the states that ban over 10 rounds magazine capacity. The reason it was started in the first place was not to install another class, but to permit the low cappers a place to shoot competitively.

This is not the point here anyway, the whole bees nest is the result of the BOD's 3lb. production ruling. I know some may say they are "looking out for us" or simplifying the rules for easier administration purposes, both worthy causes. The problem is there was not a problem to the members of USPSA in general. SOMEONE has a problem. Let's speak up and see what that is!

I don't drink, but I do not want the government telling me I can't. That didn't work either. I want to buy a class 3 firearm but the UNITED STATES of AMERICA's BOD says I am not safe to own one. Now I'm being told by an oppressive organizing body that what we have being doing successfully for many years is no longer acceptable. Why did you guys not let the membership that put you in power decide what they want? You obviously do not know what I want, and if many more like me do not either, you need to rethink this thing. The goods news is you have time to figure out a more forthright and transparent way of doing what you think needs to be done. The problem is we haven't been told what that was, only after the fact we are being told the ruling. Bad politics here fellers!!!

BTW, in most cases shooters in our sport do not want to shoot unmodified guns. As a whole we love to tinker and improve. Yes there should be limits set in every class to keep competition fair. This is not what is being done here.

Rob

[TGO]

Nik wrote:

....mid 50s to mid 80s at the other....

DAYUUMMNNN! That is a lot of shooters for a local club match.

Me? At some point I would like to get a Browning Hi Power or clone, probably in .40 S & W, and shoot it, most likely in the L-10 division.

I think they are HAWT!:

of course, I will have to do something about that hammer spur and/or the beavertail. Ouch, that'll leave a mark!

Look at www.heirloomprecision.com for some cool Hi-power work.

Rob

[BlackSabbath]

BOD....

Production is working.

Leave it ALONE.

[TGO]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

We only care because D4 21.6 says that aftermarket triggers (mag releases, slide stops, and thumb safeties) are illegal. It would have been a simple solution to just drop the aftermarket restriction. If dropping that restriction will open a can of worms, the alternative is to make DNROI's recent opinion into a ruling: if an aftermarket part satisfies OEM specs, it is considered OEM.

Can you use in production an aftermarket replacement slide?

Rob

[BritinUSA]

Communication is a key problem within USPSA; We do not get notified of important agenda items before BOD meetings, we don't get timely information when our major matches are underway (such as Nationals) that keep us up to date with match reports/photos/videos.

The web-site has a ton of information on it but updates with news/information is lacking.

With so many tools available to disseminate information it is unfortunate that USPSA is not more dynamic in this department. Electronic media is cheap, USPSA needs to use it more effectively than it does at the moment.

Edited December 29, 2011 by BritinUSA

[Skydiver]

Yes I understand, but there are no guns that are legal for L10 that are not Legal for limited. And, I may be overlooking someone but, above club level I have seen but 1 shooter in the last few years with a gun in L10 that wouldn't be competitive in Limited. Matter of fact I know of only one shooter who currently is using other than a high capacity limited gun loaded down to 10 rounds. The reason for L10 no longer exist with the addition of SS. I'm Not saying there are no shooters, just that the majority would shoot in limited, with no equipment disadvantage if L10 was not a class. The only reason left is for the states that ban over 10 rounds magazine capacity. The reason it was started in the first place was not to install another class, but to permit the low cappers a place to shoot competitively.

I disagree with the bolded statement above. I do agree that a L-10 legal gun would be legal in Limited, but people shooting .45 in Limited would be severely handicapped shooting in again folks shooting .40 because of the large disparity in capacity for the same legal magazine length. I see that L-10 not only covers the capacity limited states, but additionally, it also lets people shoot their .45 caliber single action guns that are not 1911's: eg. Tanfoglio's, CZ's, FN's, etc. Additionally, L-10 also lets shooters bring out their single stacks which have been modified beyond what is allowed in Single Stack.

BTW, in most cases shooters in our sport do not want to shoot unmodified guns. As a whole we love to tinker and improve. Yes there should be limits set in every class to keep competition fair. This is not what is being done here.

I completely agree!

[Skydiver]

I also vaguely remember something in early comments that John Amidon entered the discussion with a complaint/comment that Springfield was buying a trigger from an outside vendor and installing them as OEM and they had a lighter trigger pull.

Actually, replacing the plastic trigger does zero to make the trigger lighter, so if that was the case it was with no understanding of how the system works. Springfield has OEM'd a lot of parts from vendors for MANY of years.

I'm not even sure that I understand what the crux of the original problem was -- if the concern was "how would chronodude tell the difference between a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced through SA, and a Powder Valley trigger bar sourced direct from Powder Valley," who cares? Is there really a difference? If the part is offered as a factory option by SA, it is legal. If a competitor happens to pick up the identical part direct from SA's supplier, are we going to be able to tell the difference, and do we care?

I'm not certain I could tell the difference, and I don't care....

We only care because D4 21.6 says that aftermarket triggers (mag releases, slide stops, and thumb safeties) are illegal. It would have been a simple solution to just drop the aftermarket restriction. If dropping that restriction will open a can of worms, the alternative is to make DNROI's recent opinion into a ruling: if an aftermarket part satisfies OEM specs, it is considered OEM.

Can you use in production an aftermarket replacement slide?

Rob

Yes, this is allowed in D4 21.3, as long as the slide is the same length, contour, and caliber of the original gun.

[vluc]

Participation in Production in Western PA Section:

2005 20%

2006 23%

2007 26%

2008 28%

2009 34%

2010 37%

Over that same time period, Limited went from 32% to 26%, L10 from 14% to 11%, Open from 32% to 16%, SS from 4% to 14%, and revolver hovered at 5-4%.

So here, Production and Single Stack are our growth areas.

Edited December 29, 2011 by vluc

[TGO]

Chuck, look what you started!

Rob

[Flexmoney]

LOL...yeah, Chuck.

(hopefully...we can say , "Look what you finished")

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck, look what you started!

Rob

Dude, don't blame me I heard you were behind the XDm which is the root of all that is evil in Production. (and for all the tinfoil hat folks this is complete sarcasm)

[TGO]

What's wrong with my tin hat?

Rob

[Flexmoney]

What's wrong with my tin hat?

Rob

Does it weigh 3lbs?

With what scale?

[Chuck Anderson]

What's wrong with my tin hat?

Rob

Does it weigh 3lbs?

With what scale?

If it covers Robbie's gigantic melon head it's got to weigh well over 3 pounds.

[Micah]

32 pages? I'm gonna call tl;dr and very pleasantly ask that someone pm me with the changes to Prod

(tl;dr=too long/didn't read)

[38SuperDub]

It's very simple

3lb first pull trigger limit

No magnets

No multiple mags in one pouch

A bunch of angry USPSA members

A few (read 1 or 2) that like the rule

Takes affect Jan 2013

ETA: we decided it's all Rob's fault also

Edited December 29, 2011 by bsdubois00