twodelta Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I was visiting the in-laws this past weekend, and got to shoot at another USPSA match. This was the first time I had been to this club, and they have open squads. On one of the stages I had what I thought was a squib load. It was the typical poof with a little smoke coming out of the breech. The shell didn't eject, and it didn't have enough force to come out of battery. I stopped myself. I looked back at the RO, and told him I thought I had a squib. I took the gun apart. We looked in the barrel, and it was clear. The RO said he didn't see the gun while I was shooting. The RO didn't stop me, so I didn't get a reshoot. When I stopped, and looked back the RO was standing about 10 feet directly behind me. I feel if he had actually seen the gun he would have stopped me. There's no way I was racking another round in there to continue the course. According to the rules (5.7.7.2) I would have been granted a reshoot since the gun was clear IF the RO had stopped me. Since he admitted he didn't see the gun should I have been able to reshoot? This caused me to zero the stage. Two stages later I had to stop an Open shooter TWICE because of a squib. His barrel was not clear either time, but they let him reshoot the stage twice. Rule 5.7.7.1 says if the problem is confirmed the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikerburgess Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I think that with your case the rueling was correct if the RO did not stop you then no re-shoot is called for weather or not you think he should have been close or paying better attention. In a case like this I will happily take the zero for the sake of my safety and the cost of fixing blown up pistol. on the case of the open shooter with the actual squibs then the re-shoot was not called for, the only way I could see letting someone have a re-shoot after a squib would be on a classifier re-shot not for match score but to replace the blown one to be sent in for classification only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Hefta Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Sounds like the good ol' boys club to me. As far as your squib that wasn't a squib, you stopped yourself so no reshoot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
remoandiris Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Sounds like the good ol' boys club to me. +1. If I was the OP, I'd contact the MD and let him know what happened with the other shooter. They broke the rules with him and it was unfair to other shooters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodelta Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 Agreed. I stopped myself so no reshoot like the rules say. The RO needed to pay better attention. I wasn't about to blow my gun up. It didn't bug me until they let an open shooter reshoot twice after he did have a bullet still in the barrel. I understand someone could cheat and say they think they have a squib to reshoot a stage if they screwed up during the course of fire. This happened to me on the third target, and I had all alphas. Just seems like a gray area. What if the RO trips, sneezes, coughs, etc... and loses sight of the gun for a bit? He admitted he didn't see the gun. Either way, it was a lot of fun. Nice club with huge bays. I'd definitely go back. It got me away from the in-laws for half a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 This is why I keep a pebble in my back pocket to drop through the chamber(ok not really but I've talked about it before). If you determined it was clear and he didn't stop you you could have kept going. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elynch2007 Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 The open shooter should not have been given a reshoot like most would agree, but after the second squib in the same match his ammo should have been considered unsafe (If they were reloads or all from the same manufature). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodelta Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 This is why I keep a pebble in my back pocket to drop through the chamber(ok not really but I've talked about it before). If you determined it was clear and he didn't stop you you could have kept going. Ha! I'll have to remember that. I asked if the timer was still running after I put it back together and he said 'no'. The open shooter should not have been given a reshoot like most would agree, but after the second squib in the same match his ammo should have been considered unsafe (If they were reloads or all from the same manufature). I was thinking the same thing. I handed the timer to another person before he shot the stage for the third time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 This is why I keep a pebble in my back pocket to drop through the chamber(ok not really but I've talked about it before). If you determined it was clear and he didn't stop you you could have kept going. Ha! I'll have to remember that. I asked if the timer was still running after I put it back together and he said 'no'. The open shooter should not have been given a reshoot like most would agree, but after the second squib in the same match his ammo should have been considered unsafe (If they were reloads or all from the same manufature). I was thinking the same thing. I handed the timer to another person before he shot the stage for the third time. You were running the timer (RO) ? Who gave hime the reshoot if you were the RO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott R Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I was visiting the in-laws this past weekend, and got to shoot at another USPSA match. This was the first time I had been to this club, and they have open squads. On one of the stages I had what I thought was a squib load. It was the typical poof with a little smoke coming out of the breech. The shell didn't eject, and it didn't have enough force to come out of battery. I stopped myself. I looked back at the RO, and told him I thought I had a squib. I took the gun apart. We looked in the barrel, and it was clear. The RO said he didn't see the gun while I was shooting. The RO didn't stop me, so I didn't get a reshoot. When I stopped, and looked back the RO was standing about 10 feet directly behind me. I feel if he had actually seen the gun he would have stopped me. There's no way I was racking another round in there to continue the course. According to the rules (5.7.7.2) I would have been granted a reshoot since the gun was clear IF the RO had stopped me. Since he admitted he didn't see the gun should I have been able to reshoot? This caused me to zero the stage. Two stages later I had to stop an Open shooter TWICE because of a squib. His barrel was not clear either time, but they let him reshoot the stage twice. Rule 5.7.7.1 says if the problem is confirmed the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot. Ok, so now that I have gone back and read this...you were the RO why not score the stage as shot when you stopped him and confirmed the squib? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodelta Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 Ok, so now that I have gone back and read this...you were the RO why not score the stage as shot when you stopped him and confirmed the squib? One of the other guys keeping score said he could reshoot. I knew you didn't get a reshoot if the squib was still in the barrel. I've seen it happen before. I was an outsider, and didn't want to start anything while I was there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Ok, so now that I have gone back and read this...you were the RO why not score the stage as shot when you stopped him and confirmed the squib? One of the other guys keeping score said he could reshoot. I knew you didn't get a reshoot if the squib was still in the barrel. I've seen it happen before. I was an outsider, and didn't want to start anything while I was there. This type of thing happens quite often. Was visiting a club where the steel on a star was all falling when one piece was hit yet they kept going. I said, "well, that's a reshoot for REF" and an old timer sitting beside me (we were waiting for the squad to clear for our turn) said "Not at this club." I engaged in a light conversation - and they explained that if they did that they'd never get through the stage because of the star design - it always did that. I let it be after a slight challenge... then the MD actually asked me what I thought. Pointed out the good and the bad - and he took it fairly well. What else can you ask for at that point - let him figure out how to fix it. Find the MD - mention it as a piece of constructive feedback, and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Sounds like the local yocals need some training. An RO should always be in a position to know a gun had a malfunction. I have watched (key word watched)quite a few shooters as an RO and I can't think of a situation where I could not hear or see a squib occur. Thanks for this post. It gave me an idea for a rules discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steel1212 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 If your a RO your job is to be watching the gun. If your watching the gun you should be able to HEAR a squib. If you think it might be a squib then stop the shooter. If you don't eventually your going to get a gun blown up in your face. As ROs it's our job to keep everybody safe! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I was visiting the in-laws this past weekend, and got to shoot at another USPSA match. This was the first time I had been to this club, and they have open squads. On one of the stages I had what I thought was a squib load. It was the typical poof with a little smoke coming out of the breech. The shell didn't eject, and it didn't have enough force to come out of battery. I stopped myself. I looked back at the RO, and told him I thought I had a squib. I took the gun apart. We looked in the barrel, and it was clear. The RO said he didn't see the gun while I was shooting. The RO didn't stop me, so I didn't get a reshoot. When I stopped, and looked back the RO was standing about 10 feet directly behind me. I feel if he had actually seen the gun he would have stopped me. There's no way I was racking another round in there to continue the course. According to the rules (5.7.7.2) I would have been granted a reshoot since the gun was clear IF the RO had stopped me. Since he admitted he didn't see the gun should I have been able to reshoot? This caused me to zero the stage. Two stages later I had to stop an Open shooter TWICE because of a squib. His barrel was not clear either time, but they let him reshoot the stage twice. Rule 5.7.7.1 says if the problem is confirmed the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot. This is a prime example of why 1) we have rules, and 2) we should enforce rules. So when you show up at a match, any match. You know what your getting and your know how things should go. This is a prime example of why ROs should take their job seriously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodelta Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 I have no problem with the rule. They make sense. This just bugged me because the RO said he didn't see the gun so he wasn't paying attention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I've been on both sides of this. I've had a squib that the RO heard and shrugged off, and I've missed a couple of squibs as an RO. I often double-plug to save what's left of my hearing. Yeah, I have missed a few squibs that were immediately pointed out by the squad/gallery at high volume(!). Not many; but a few. I don't resent the assistance. "No blood in the dust" is a good goal, and I'll take all the help I can get to meet that end. When I say a few, I mean that. I've still caught way many more than I've missed, including bullets lodged far enough down the barrel to allow fully chambering the next round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Mark, Funny you should say this... it just happened to at our local. A friend of mine was running the guy and there were 15 people on the range. The really strange thing was I was the only one who heard it. I was way off to the side, but yelled STOP really loud and the shooter froze. Then everyone in the place did a slow head swivel in my direction; I walked over and gave him the commands to USC, at that point I was thinking oh shit. Did I not hear what I thought I did? As it turn out the gun was in full battery for the next shot and there was indeed a bullet stuck in the pipe. Glad I didn't screw the guy up, but I would rather error on the side of caution. JT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 Mark, Funny you should say this... it just happened to at our local. A friend of mine was running the guy and there were 15 people on the range. The really strange thing was I was the only one who heard it. I was way off to the side, but yelled STOP really loud and the shooter froze. Then everyone in the place did a slow head swivel in my direction; I walked over and gave him the commands to USC, at that point I was thinking oh shit. Did I not hear what I thought I did? As it turn out the gun was in full battery for the next shot and there was indeed a bullet stuck in the pipe. Glad I didn't screw the guy up, but I would rather error on the side of caution. JT Holy fijoles!!! I am right with you! I'll grant a reshoot any day as a trade-off to missing fingers. I havn't yet seen an injury like that, and hope I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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