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Hitting a wall.


steve123

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Hi,

This is my first post here in Brians forums. I'm glad I found this place!

I've been mostly into rifle shooting for the last 7-8 years, although pistol shooting was a passion of mine for many years. Maybe I can get some long unanswered questions about pistol shooting resolved.

Some background-

I started combat style pistol shooting way back in the late 80's. Mostly at my local venues in Northern AZ. Within a few years of starting I began winning most of these matches. The problem at the time was that this group of shooters were D and C level shooters so I wasn't pressed to improve my abilities. So I stayed at what I'd consider a low B level shooter for a few more years. I was never officially classified that I can remember as I had only gone down to Phoenix occasionally.

Then I decided,(mid 90's) it would be fun to try the American Handgunner World Shootoff. This was my first exposure to a world class event and the top GM shooters. I was impressed at the time how fast they were but was even more impressed as the years went by because I was gradually realizing how hard it is to achieve that top level of performance.

The first year at the AHWS I got 2cnd in unclassified. I had started practicing a few months in advance and shot a total of maybe 1000 rounds on steel during this practice.

2cnd year I got put into B class but got DQ'd from an AD. I was shooting well and had practiced with around 2000 rounds.

3rd year I practiced with 3000 rounds, months previously and won B class. That new STI Edge helped a lot.

4th year I got put into A and was lucky to finish in the top 3/4's. It went on like this for another 3-4 years even though I practiced with 5000 or more rounds within 3 months previous to the match.

I had hit a wall! It didn't seem to matter how many rounds I shot in practice I could not find any more improvement. If I tried to speed up I'd start missing. Can't miss fast enough to win,can you? LOL

Being discouraged with pistol and wanting to try other things I got into trackdays with sport bikes and dune riding quads with my sons till a few years ago.

I recently went to a local pistol match and introduced a new friend to the sport. My interest is rekindled again.

So my question is to the Masters. Do I have to put 40-50 thousand rounds down the barrel a year to get in your realm of ability level or is there any short cuts? How do I get past this wall?

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I doubt it is a quantity thing. It might be...a little bit...depending on your personality traits and how you learn.

I would imagine that you are at a place where you need to learn to do things differently.

Do you hit your targets really well? Do you use a front sight focus?

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I doubt it is a quantity thing. It might be...a little bit...depending on your personality traits and how you learn.

I would imagine that you are at a place where you need to learn to do things differently.

Do you hit your targets really well? Do you use a front sight focus?

Thanks for responding Flexmoney!

I think I hit well? Meaning that one of my stronger points would be accuracy rather than being super speedy. I'm much better on steel than paper.

Yes I primarily put my concentration on the front site.

One of the things I just recently noticed I could be doing wrong is I unconsciously try to compensate for recoil by pushing the gun back down during recoil. I got one of those stainless steel tumbling set ups a while back and apparently :wacko: didn't let a batch of the brass dry long enough. loaded a bunch of 40's and am having some duds which has brought attention to my habit of pushing the gun back down.

Yes I would like to learn to do whatever it is the pro's do. If that means retraining my self then so be it.

So do you pro's unconsciously try to compensate for recoil? Or do you have perfect follow through even when shooting your fastest?

Edited by steve123
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I'm not a master.....yet, but if I've learned anything, it's that short cuts never get you to where you really wanted to go.

Nothing worth having ever comes easy.

I know exactly what you mean.

Maybe I should word it a little differently. Can I achieve master level with practicing 10,000 rounds a year, 20,000 rounds.... or practicing twice a week,3 times a week, nearly every day ? What does it take?

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There are many folks that have the talent to make Master but yet they seem to remain stuck in B-class. Part of that is because they do the same bad habits and/or don't approach what it takes to get to the 'next level' properly.....and thus why their performances are very inconsistent.

If you look at those folks' stage scores, they look like a yo-yo. And part of that problem is a philosophy that I so disagree with - get your hits and then your speed will come. That is like telling someone to start walking and eventually you will somehow start running 4-minute miles - won't happen. So unknowingly, their natural and physical abilities allows them to shoot faster than they have learned (as opposed to faster than their abilities) and so they either have a GREAT stage or a CRAPPY stage, usually nothing in the middle. Then after a couple of crappy stages, they intentionally slow down because they don't won't to miss anymore and start turning in mediocre scores. ....hence the yo-yo effect.

The solution is relatively easy but from the folks I have worked with - actually executing that solution could be quick or require a lot of time and practice.

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There are many folks that have the talent to make Master but yet they seem to remain stuck in B-class. Part of that is because they do the same bad habits and/or don't approach what it takes to get to the 'next level' properly.....and thus why their performances are very inconsistent.

If you look at those folks' stage scores, they look like a yo-yo. And part of that problem is a philosophy that I so disagree with - get your hits and then your speed will come. That is like telling someone to start walking and eventually you will somehow start running 4-minute miles - won't happen. So unknowingly, their natural and physical abilities allows them to shoot faster than they have learned (as opposed to faster than their abilities) and so they either have a GREAT stage or a CRAPPY stage, usually nothing in the middle. Then after a couple of crappy stages, they intentionally slow down because they don't won't to miss anymore and start turning in mediocre scores. ....hence the yo-yo effect.

The solution is relatively easy but from the folks I have worked with - actually executing that solution could be quick or require a lot of time and practice.

Can you expound a little more on your last sentence please.

Thanks

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The first year I got 2cnd unclassified. I had started practicing a few months in advance and shot a total of maybe 1000 rounds

2cnd year I got put into B class and had practiced with around 2000 rounds.

3rd year I practiced with 3000 rounds, months previously and won B class.

4th year I got put into A even though I practiced with 5000 or more rounds

I hit a wall! It didn't seem to matter how many rounds I shot in practice I could not find any more improvement.

So my question

to the Masters. Do I have to put 40-50 thousand rounds down the barrel

Steve, I'm only a B shooter so feel free to ignore these thoughts:

1. I don't see any mention of dry firing?

2. Seems like you shoot 5,000 rounds in three months before a match -

don't see anything about practicing the other nine months?

3. You mention the STi Edge improved your game - other equipment

improvements could possibly improve your level even more??

4. You don't mention where you're losing your points - draw time? 2nd shot?

accuracy? splits? reloads? You can self analyze which aspect

of the sport you should concentrate on by comparing your scores/

times with those of Master level shooters.

Just a thought - good luck with it. Wish I had that problem - I'll

probably never make A level:((

Jack

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Like I said earlier, I am not a master. Nor am I a pro. I have the great opportunity to have a shooting buddy who has been shooting for a long time and is a pretty darn good shooter. What I have learned from him that I believe is very important, not only to shooting but any endeavor worth pursueing, is to "never be satisfied".I am ALWAYS looking for a better way. This means being open minded and willing to try. And also willing to fail. To quote Thomas Edison "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work" Just because one way works for someone else, does not mean it is the best way for me, I am constantly trying new ways to do things, sometimes it works better than the old way, sometimes not, but either way I am always learning, and progressing. This takes time and effort, and I firmly believe that there is a direct correlation between the amount of time and effort put into something, and what is achieved.

Here are a couple of my favorite quotes that support this belief, and keep me going.

"I'll do what you won't today, so I'll be able to do what you can't tomorrow"- Unknown

"Continuous effort, not strength or intelligence, is the key to unlocking our potential"-Winston Churchill

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Don't feel like the lone ranger regarding the wall. They are part of your development as a shooter. I lost count at how many I ran into, and then worked around one. Happens to everyone so expect it, and then commit yourself to figuring out how to get around/over it. More on this in a bit.

Re: quantity vs. quality, its both. I think the metric that was passed onto me was to shoot 100 rounds for every one round you intend to shoot at a major match. For example, pick a major match that you'd really like to do well in; i.e. State, or Area, or the Nats. Let's assume the match you pick will require 200 rounds. That's 20,000 rounds you should shoot in preparation for that match (yes, this will take most of the season to expend.) I think the first time I adopted that metric I ended up shooting 150 rounds for every 1 (I started in January with the Nats in mind) which yielded 30,000 rounds of practice with my IPSC gun. Now, that said, once you hit a certain level of performance, you will likely back off of that metric a bit and will begin focusing on very specific tasks and then some routine maintenance. For me, the following year I shot only 16,000 rounds and actually improved my performance. So, its not a matter of only quantity. Which brings up the matter of quality.

You can't just launch bullets down range, or continue with the same practice methodology if it's not working. You will quickly realize that this is a troubleshooting process and it definitely requires some dedicated thought on your behalf. So, define the problem sufficiently, set a goal (with parameters), then make a plan. Sounds simple but is usually more difficult because we're typically frustrated when we hit these moments. Ditch the emotion and think through the problem. As someone else mentioned, try to determine what the M/GM shooters accomplish for particular drills and begin working toward these goals. Dissect each part of the drill (i.e. the draw, the mag change, the splits, etc.) and try to streamline each one. Obviously, you'll need a shot timer for this. And before I forget, seek formal instruction from a M/GM with a good reputation for *teaching* and not just shooting. Go into the class with specific things you'd like to improve upon. But don't be surprised if they elevate your entire game. I still think some of the most valuable things I learned from the "big boys" were training drills and methodology. Trust me, practice does not have to be complicated to result in improvement. I typically practiced with no more than three targets.

One last thing about practice that really helped me. I learned to put more attention on the first 50-100 rounds down range while I was still "cold." Since the matches are typically shot "cold" this helped me learn to be focused right out of the gate and not warm-up for 200 rounds and then gain a false sense of confidence about my capabilities based on the last 100 rounds of practice. Besides developing my focus, it also helped me make better decisions about difficult shots during a match because I knew exactly what I was capable of when I was cold. For example, I remember one year seeing an extremely fast swinger at 25 yards that gave about 0.4 seconds of exposure on each side of the swing. I knew that a slow split time for me (cold) was about 0.35. Knowing this, I was able to take both shots on one side of the swing which saved me a tremendous amount of time (others took one shot on one side, then waited until it swung to the other side to take the second shot.) When you train like this, have particular times and hits you intend to make and attempt to obtain those immediately once you start. Make yourself a little wager to increase the pressure a bit (i.e. no favorite snack, or TV show, or something important, for the day if you don't perform). Oddly, I found myself really enjoying these self-induced pressure situations which really took the potential boredom out of practice.

Good luck with the pursuit!!

Grunt

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The first year I got 2cnd unclassified. I had started practicing a few months in advance and shot a total of maybe 1000 rounds

2cnd year I got put into B class and had practiced with around 2000 rounds.

3rd year I practiced with 3000 rounds, months previously and won B class.

4th year I got put into A even though I practiced with 5000 or more rounds

I hit a wall! It didn't seem to matter how many rounds I shot in practice I could not find any more improvement.

So my question

to the Masters. Do I have to put 40-50 thousand rounds down the barrel

Steve, I'm only a B shooter so feel free to ignore these thoughts:

1. I don't see any mention of dry firing?

2. Seems like you shoot 5,000 rounds in three months before a match -

don't see anything about practicing the other nine months?

3. You mention the STi Edge improved your game - other equipment

improvements could possibly improve your level even more??

4. You don't mention where you're losing your points - draw time? 2nd shot?

accuracy? splits? reloads? You can self analyze which aspect

of the sport you should concentrate on by comparing your scores/

times with those of Master level shooters.

Just a thought - good luck with it. Wish I had that problem - I'll

probably never make A level:((

Jack

I better clarify that I preferred steel rather than USPSA. So I never shot any big USPSA match's.

1. At the time I was doing some dry fire but mostly at the beep trying to establish a faster and more consistent draw. It turned out to be a strong point for me. I won the fast draw stage where there was a single tombstone shaped steel on both sides crossing each other, 2-3 times over the years while in B and A.

Yes the bulk of the practice was just prior to the AHWS but I was shooting combat pistol matches once a month the whole year.

I had a Safariland race style holster. It worked well till the last year I went which was the same year those new holsters came out that didn't require the pistol to be lifted up clear of the muzzle cover. Can't remember the name of them. Definitely faster! I got my clock cleaned that year.

I was equally good on the plate racks as the field stages where the plates were spread out.

I just couldn't achieve that next level. The fastest I could do a plate rack with 6 plates from the holster was 3.5 seconds. More like 4 seconds on average. For reference the GM's were doing it in 2.5-3 seconds. I'm talking about with a limited gun too.

In this particular type of match if you had a high cap and had to reload you had already lost,LOL.

I need a pro to tell me how they broke through to the next level. What the defining factors were.

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Like I said earlier, I am not a master. Nor am I a pro. I have the great opportunity to have a shooting buddy who has been shooting for a long time and is a pretty darn good shooter. What I have learned from him that I believe is very important, not only to shooting but any endeavor worth pursueing, is to "never be satisfied".I am ALWAYS looking for a better way. This means being open minded and willing to try. And also willing to fail. To quote Thomas Edison "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work" Just because one way works for someone else, does not mean it is the best way for me, I am constantly trying new ways to do things, sometimes it works better than the old way, sometimes not, but either way I am always learning, and progressing. This takes time and effort, and I firmly believe that there is a direct correlation between the amount of time and effort put into something, and what is achieved.

Here are a couple of my favorite quotes that support this belief, and keep me going.

"I'll do what you won't today, so I'll be able to do what you can't tomorrow"- Unknown

"Continuous effort, not strength or intelligence, is the key to unlocking our potential"-Winston Churchill

That's encouraging! Thanks for the quotes as well.

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Are you shooting a waver stance? How would you describe your stance and grip?

When you transition from one target to another (long transitions, not those quick plate rack transitions)...is your focus staying on the front sight or elsewhere?

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Don't feel like the lone ranger regarding the wall. They are part of your development as a shooter. I lost count at how many I ran into, and then worked around one. Happens to everyone so expect it, and then commit yourself to figuring out how to get around/over it. More on this in a bit.

Re: quantity vs. quality, its both. I think the metric that was passed onto me was to shoot 100 rounds for every one round you intend to shoot at a major match. For example, pick a major match that you'd really like to do well in; i.e. State, or Area, or the Nats. Let's assume the match you pick will require 200 rounds. That's 20,000 rounds you should shoot in preparation for that match (yes, this will take most of the season to expend.) I think the first time I adopted that metric I ended up shooting 150 rounds for every 1 (I started in January with the Nats in mind) which yielded 30,000 rounds of practice with my IPSC gun. Now, that said, once you hit a certain level of performance, you will likely back off of that metric a bit and will begin focusing on very specific tasks and then some routine maintenance. For me, the following year I shot only 16,000 rounds and actually improved my performance. So, its not a matter of only quantity. Which brings up the matter of quality.

You can't just launch bullets down range, or continue with the same practice methodology if it's not working. You will quickly realize that this is a troubleshooting process and it definitely requires some dedicated thought on your behalf. So, define the problem sufficiently, set a goal (with parameters), then make a plan. Sounds simple but is usually more difficult because we're typically frustrated when we hit these moments. Ditch the emotion and think through the problem. As someone else mentioned, try to determine what the M/GM shooters accomplish for particular drills and begin working toward these goals. Dissect each part of the drill (i.e. the draw, the mag change, the splits, etc.) and try to streamline each one. Obviously, you'll need a shot timer for this. And before I forget, seek formal instruction from a M/GM with a good reputation for *teaching* and not just shooting. Go into the class with specific things you'd like to improve upon. But don't be surprised if they elevate your entire game. I still think some of the most valuable things I learned from the "big boys" were training drills and methodology. Trust me, practice does not have to be complicated to result in improvement. I typically practiced with no more than three targets.

One last thing about practice that really helped me. I learned to put more attention on the first 50-100 rounds down range while I was still "cold." Since the matches are typically shot "cold" this helped me learn to be focused right out of the gate and not warm-up for 200 rounds and then gain a false sense of confidence about my capabilities based on the last 100 rounds of practice. Besides developing my focus, it also helped me make better decisions about difficult shots during a match because I knew exactly what I was capable of when I was cold. For example, I remember one year seeing an extremely fast swinger at 25 yards that gave about 0.4 seconds of exposure on each side of the swing. I knew that a slow split time for me (cold) was about 0.35. Knowing this, I was able to take both shots on one side of the swing which saved me a tremendous amount of time (others took one shot on one side, then waited until it swung to the other side to take the second shot.) When you train like this, have particular times and hits you intend to make and attempt to obtain those immediately once you start. Make yourself a little wager to increase the pressure a bit (i.e. no favorite snack, or TV show, or something important, for the day if you don't perform). Oddly, I found myself really enjoying these self-induced pressure situations which really took the potential boredom out of practice.

Good luck with the pursuit!!

Grunt

Thanks Grunt for taking the time to write all that out.

If I were to add up all the centerfire pistol rounds I've ever shot I doubt I've fired more than 60,000 all together. So I bet that's most of the problem. Not enough trigger time.

For practicing, do you guys think getting one of those Tactical Solutions 22lr conversions for my STI would help make me faster or is the money better spent on components ?

Also can someone please answer my question from a few posts up on recoil control and follow through?

What classification are you so I can get some perspective here.

Thanks

Edited by steve123
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Are you shooting a waver stance? How would you describe your stance and grip?

When you transition from one target to another (long transitions, not those quick plate rack transitions)...is your focus staying on the front sight or elsewhere?

I use the modified Weaver stance. Like if one were to get into a fighting stance with knees slightly bent and leaning forward a tad.

I use the standard IPSC type grip. It is a weak area for me. I find myself gripping more with my strong hand when I know it should be the opposite. Also I don't have as much range in my wrist as most folks. I can't cock my wrist down as far. It's uncomfortable for me.

For the most part I'd be watching the front site. You know how it is when you start off a stage watching the front site and you're hitting stuff then you relax some, take things for granted and start screwing up.

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One thing that has helped me improve is video of myself shooting. Try to have someone in your squad video your next match when you shoot and you'll get a whole new perspective of things. Looking at something from a 3rd person POV instead of 1st person, its like watching something else entirely. Ive shot really good stages before and then watched the video and realized I could have done sooooo many things different/better. Gives me an idea of WHAT to practice next time instead of just going to the range and doing the same things over and over. I also like to video better shooters and compare the video runs. Where did they make up extra time. what was their stage plan. Helps me to leanr where and how i was getting beat so I can hopefully correct it.

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One thing that has helped me improve is video of myself shooting. Try to have someone in your squad video your next match when you shoot and you'll get a whole new perspective of things. Looking at something from a 3rd person POV instead of 1st person, its like watching something else entirely. Ive shot really good stages before and then watched the video and realized I could have done sooooo many things different/better. Gives me an idea of WHAT to practice next time instead of just going to the range and doing the same things over and over. I also like to video better shooters and compare the video runs. Where did they make up extra time. what was their stage plan. Helps me to leanr where and how i was getting beat so I can hopefully correct it.

That's an excellent idea!

Thanks

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Probably the best thing you can do to learn where you need improvement and where you're losing time, is to take a class with one of the top GM instructors. They will give you things to practice you haven't even considered.

You may also consider video taping your practice and match sessions and comparing to yourself to better shooters on the same stage or setup.

As long as you're not shooting like a snail and have good, accurate splits as it is, your not going to make up much time shooting faster and letting accuracy suffer. Think about it. You shoot two alphas on a target from box "A" with a split of .15 then move to box "B" in 3.5 seconds. Then, the guy behind you shoots two alphas on the same target from box "A" with a split of .10 and moves to box "B" in 3. 95 seconds.

Shooting faster he only gained 5/100th's of a second. Setting up properly and moving faster you gained almost a 1/2 second. over the course of a match (points being pretty equal and speed fairly consistent with this example) who do you think's going to win?

In general, you're not going to win a match against someone like Flexmoney by shooting faster splits. So concentrate on other areas where you're being smoked (transitions, time setting up in a position etc...) and get good hits. Here's where dry fire and a good timer with par-time settings can help alot.

Make sure when you're doing your transitions, that your eyes are snapping to a spot on the center of the A-zone ahead of your front sight. As your gun recoils from shot two, snap your eyes to the next target and ride the recoil across as you prep the trigger, so that when your front sight arrives and you see what you need to see, you can break the shot. If you're trying to track the front sight across, you're going to over-transition, or be forced to slow down so you don't.

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I too like shooting steel. In fact, stand and deliver courses of fire have always been my strong point. I guess that's why the classifier is almost always always my best stage in an IPSC match.

As far as steel, I went from so-so to pretty decent in a couple of seasons with minimal live fire, perhaps 20,000 rounds total (dedicated just to steel) in a couple of seasons with each "season" being April-August. I was deep into Master class in USPSA at the time and knocking hard on the door to GM. Shooting until I am ankle deep in brass just to be shooting makes things worse. FWIW, the draw has never been my strong point, but I usually have pretty sporty transitions. In my case, I needed to train my vision through a ton of dry fire, and I worked on my mental game. Sometimes it isn't as much a matter of developing skills as it is a matter of just getting your stuff together.

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Probably the best thing you can do to learn where you need improvement and where you're losing time, is to take a class with one of the top GM instructors. They will give you things to practice you haven't even considered.

You may also consider video taping your practice and match sessions and comparing to yourself to better shooters on the same stage or setup.

As long as you're not shooting like a snail and have good, accurate splits as it is, your not going to make up much time shooting faster and letting accuracy suffer. Think about it. You shoot two alphas on a target from box "A" with a split of .15 then move to box "B" in 3.5 seconds. Then, the guy behind you shoots two alphas on the same target from box "A" with a split of .10 and moves to box "B" in 3. 95 seconds.

Shooting faster he only gained 5/100th's of a second. Setting up properly and moving faster you gained almost a 1/2 second. over the course of a match (points being pretty equal and speed fairly consistent with this example) who do you think's going to win?

In general, you're not going to win a match against someone like Flexmoney by shooting faster splits. So concentrate on other areas where you're being smoked (transitions, time setting up in a position etc...) and get good hits. Here's where dry fire and a good timer with par-time settings can help alot.

Make sure when you're doing your transitions, that your eyes are snapping to a spot on the center of the A-zone ahead of your front sight. As your gun recoils from shot two, snap your eyes to the next target and ride the recoil across as you prep the trigger, so that when your front sight arrives and you see what you need to see, you can break the shot. If you're trying to track the front sight across, you're going to over-transition, or be forced to slow down so you don't.

Thanks Mark,

I see what you are saying. Being more efficient with time is a definite fault of mine too. Seems like I'm going fast but obviously not in comparison to more experienced shooters.

The more I consider all this info I'm getting from everybody the more I realize I really need professional training to point out what I'm doing wrong and push me in the right direction. Oh and a boat load of ammo as well.

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What's your goal? Don't remember you stating it, just making comment on improving.

Actually for the present I have no goals. Last Sunday was the first pistol match I've shot in a year. Nothings changed. Still D and C shooters after all these years are going to our local match's. I still probably won the match,even with a procedural. Haven't got the results yet.

My question to begin with was how did the pro's break through to the next level?

Time for me to read a book on the subject. Maybe starting there would be best.

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I too like shooting steel. In fact, stand and deliver courses of fire have always been my strong point. I guess that's why the classifier is almost always always my best stage in an IPSC match.

As far as steel, I went from so-so to pretty decent in a couple of seasons with minimal live fire, perhaps 20,000 rounds total (dedicated just to steel) in a couple of seasons with each "season" being April-August. I was deep into Master class in USPSA at the time and knocking hard on the door to GM. Shooting until I am ankle deep in brass just to be shooting makes things worse. FWIW, the draw has never been my strong point, but I usually have pretty sporty transitions. In my case, I needed to train my vision through a ton of dry fire, and I worked on my mental game. Sometimes it isn't as much a matter of developing skills as it is a matter of just getting your stuff together.

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