Is it legal to activate a mover with a magazine?

[Nik Habicht]

In regards to this subject, why does it have to be a mag? Can't you have a water bottle or a rock tucked on your belt for this use? Might you even be holding the water bottle or rock in your hand? Or might it be "mistaken" for an aiming device?

I don't think I'll be starting you with anything other than a stage prop in your hands.....

What rule would you cite?

This is the closest one, 8.2.3. I don't think a water bottle is a "handgun, loading device, or ammunition."

In fact, if it was, you couldn't allow a competitor to hold a stage prop without violating this rule.

A course of fire must never require or allow a competitor to touch or

hold a handgun, loading device or ammunition after the “Standby”

command and before the “Start Signal” (except for unavoidable touching

with the lower arms).

Tim,

give me a break. Do we really need to start writing "hands empty" as part of the stage description?

I'd cite 8.2.2, and call it a day......

Now if you want to pull something out of a pocket, or off your belt, o.k.....

Yes, if you want to penalize a competitor, you need a basis in the rules.

If that means it needs to be in the WSB, so be it.

They're not suggestions, and they ain't hard....

How is ensuring that the competitor is in an acceptable start position equivalent to penalizing the competitor? You do realize that you're talking nonsense, now, right?

No one's talking abut assessing a penalty.....

[Punkin Chunker]

I'd cite 8.2.2, and call it a day......

Now if you want to pull something out of a pocket, or off your belt, o.k.....

Out of curiosity -- how does 8.2.2 apply?

[Nik Habicht]

I'd cite 8.2.2, and call it a day......

Now if you want to pull something out of a pocket, or off your belt, o.k.....

Out of curiosity -- how does 8.2.2 apply?

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

The competitor's assumption of the start position must satisfy the RO. If the RO is not satisfied, he should not start the competitor.......

If I'm working as the RO or CRO on a stage, and a competitor attempts to start with something other that a WSB mandated prop in his/her hand -- I'm kicking that up to the RM for a decision immediately, as it could affect competitive equity......

If I'm the RM who's called -- it would depend on my evaluation of the situation. I'm not inclined to permit it however......

(Slippery slope: The first guy wants to use a water bottle, the next guy wants to use a 10 lb. sledge, the last guy wants to get his entry team ram out of the trunk of his cruiser. The activator needs to last the match -- so there might need to be a practical limit....)

[Punkin Chunker]

I'd cite 8.2.2, and call it a day......

Now if you want to pull something out of a pocket, or off your belt, o.k.....

Out of curiosity -- how does 8.2.2 apply?

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

The competitor's assumption of the start position must satisfy the RO. If the RO is not satisfied, he should not start the competitor.......

If I'm working as the RO or CRO on a stage, and a competitor attempts to start with something other that a WSB mandated prop in his/her hand -- I'm kicking that up to the RM for a decision immediately, as it could affect competitive equity......

If I'm the RM who's called -- it would depend on my evaluation of the situation. I'm not inclined to permit it however......

(Slippery slope: The first guy wants to use a water bottle, the next guy wants to use a 10 lb. sledge, the last guy wants to get his entry team ram out of the trunk of his cruiser. The activator needs to last the match -- so there might need to be a practical limit....)

Thanks for the insight.

I see what you say about the slippery slope. It's the same mentality that eventually makes it so that "facing uprange" has to be defined in an appendix, decisions about whether "hands" mean "fingers" or not have to be made, range props (chairs) have to be fastened down or marked for location, etc. ad nauseum.

On the other hand, freestyle is freestyle. Maybe 8.2.2 should specifiy empty hands, if that's the expected situation, instead of the assumed one.

[Sean Gaines]

all I have to say is it takes "stugots" to do something like that especially at an area or nationals event. It is always cool to see it work out for the competitor, sometimes it can be a huge game changer. I guess it would be good if you had nothing to lose, but alot to gain. But not beneficial if you are in the race.

[Nik Habicht]

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

The competitor's assumption of the start position must satisfy the RO. If the RO is not satisfied, he should not start the competitor.......

If I'm working as the RO or CRO on a stage, and a competitor attempts to start with something other that a WSB mandated prop in his/her hand -- I'm kicking that up to the RM for a decision immediately, as it could affect competitive equity......

If I'm the RM who's called -- it would depend on my evaluation of the situation. I'm not inclined to permit it however......

(Slippery slope: The first guy wants to use a water bottle, the next guy wants to use a 10 lb. sledge, the last guy wants to get his entry team ram out of the trunk of his cruiser. The activator needs to last the match -- so there might need to be a practical limit....)

Thanks for the insight.

I see what you say about the slippery slope. It's the same mentality that eventually makes it so that "facing uprange" has to be defined in an appendix, decisions about whether "hands" mean "fingers" or not have to be made, range props (chairs) have to be fastened down or marked for location, etc. ad nauseum.

On the other hand, freestyle is freestyle. Maybe 8.2.2 should specifiy empty hands, if that's the expected situation, instead of the assumed one.

And that's why, as the RO I'd be calling the RM, so that he could clarify the WSB if needed.....

all I have to say is it takes "stugots" to do something like that especially at an area or nationals event. It is always cool to see it work out for the competitor, sometimes it can be a huge game changer. I guess it would be good if you had nothing to lose, but alot to gain. But not beneficial if you are in the race.

Sean,

that's exactly why it deserves RM attention at first mention -- because it could be a huge game changer....

[Thomas H]

all I have to say is it takes "stugots" to do something like that especially at an area or nationals event. It is always cool to see it work out for the competitor, sometimes it can be a huge game changer. I guess it would be good if you had nothing to lose, but alot to gain. But not beneficial if you are in the race.

Sean,

that's exactly why it deserves RM attention at first mention -- because it could be a huge game changer....

I guess I've always thought of it as an "equipment" problem---for example, there are requirements about equipment placement and the fact that you can't change such throughout the match. If there is a specific item that you use specifically to activate something, then it is "equipment" and it had better be something that you have on you throughout the match.

5.2.3.2: Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.

Mags and such work perfectly well---and if someone wants to throw a mag away on that, they are welcome to do so. Now, if someone straps on/pockets/holds something new to use just on that stage, then they are going to have an issue, because they are changing their equipment mid-match, and we don't allow that.

Just another way of looking at it...

Some people may argue that a water bottle isn't equipment---if so, then you won't be using it on the stage. If you say "but I'm going to use it!" then it is equipment, and you'd better have it stowed according to your division requirements before the start signal---and have it there for the entire match.

[kamikaze1a]

I guess I've always thought of it as an "equipment" problem---for example, there are requirements about equipment placement and the fact that you can't change such throughout the match. If there is a specific item that you use specifically to activate something, then it is "equipment" and it had better be something that you have on you throughout the match.

5.2.3.2: Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.

Mags and such work perfectly well---and if someone wants to throw a mag away on that, they are welcome to do so. Now, if someone straps on/pockets/holds something new to use just on that stage, then they are going to have an issue, because they are changing their equipment mid-match, and we don't allow that.

Just another way of looking at it...

Some people may argue that a water bottle isn't equipment---if so, then you won't be using it on the stage. If you say "but I'm going to use it!" then it is equipment, and you'd better have it stowed according to your division requirements before the start signal---and have it there for the entire match.

Good point! But would that apply to 3 gun matches too where I mount additional mag holders for certain stages? I've not been to any "accredited" matches and that requirement might already be the case...you have to have the same equipment/pouches mounted the whole match.

I'm really liking this "rules" section. Learning a lot beyond what I "read" in the rule book...

Edited December 19, 2011 by kamikaze1a

[Nik Habicht]

Good point! But would that apply to 3 gun matches too where I mount additional mag holders for certain stages? I've not been to any "accredited" matches and that requirement might already be the case...you have to have the same equipment/pouches mounted the whole match.

I'm really liking this "rules" section. Learning a lot beyond what I "read" in the rule book...

IIRC, USPSA three gun rules already address this, and specifically allow for reconfiguration of gear -- so you won't, for example, have to carry your pistol on a shotgun stage....

[Nik Habicht]

all I have to say is it takes "stugots" to do something like that especially at an area or nationals event. It is always cool to see it work out for the competitor, sometimes it can be a huge game changer. I guess it would be good if you had nothing to lose, but alot to gain. But not beneficial if you are in the race.

Sean,

that's exactly why it deserves RM attention at first mention -- because it could be a huge game changer....

I guess I've always thought of it as an "equipment" problem---for example, there are requirements about equipment placement and the fact that you can't change such throughout the match. If there is a specific item that you use specifically to activate something, then it is "equipment" and it had better be something that you have on you throughout the match.

5.2.3.2: Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.

Mags and such work perfectly well---and if someone wants to throw a mag away on that, they are welcome to do so. Now, if someone straps on/pockets/holds something new to use just on that stage, then they are going to have an issue, because they are changing their equipment mid-match, and we don't allow that.

Just another way of looking at it...

Some people may argue that a water bottle isn't equipment---if so, then you won't be using it on the stage. If you say "but I'm going to use it!" then it is equipment, and you'd better have it stowed according to your division requirements before the start signal---and have it there for the entire match.

That's an interesting point -- but what do you do about the definition of Allied Equipment?

Allied equipment . . . .Holsters, magazines, speed loading devices and/or their respective pouches.

Silent on the topic of water bottles.....

[kamikaze1a]

So many rules and so many way to interpret them...I feel this is a good thing as it makes you "think" about the game and how to "play" it.

Thanks for clarifying!

[Thomas H]

I guess I've always thought of it as an "equipment" problem---for example, there are requirements about equipment placement and the fact that you can't change such throughout the match. If there is a specific item that you use specifically to activate something, then it is "equipment" and it had better be something that you have on you throughout the match.

5.2.3.2: Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.

Mags and such work perfectly well---and if someone wants to throw a mag away on that, they are welcome to do so. Now, if someone straps on/pockets/holds something new to use just on that stage, then they are going to have an issue, because they are changing their equipment mid-match, and we don't allow that.

Just another way of looking at it...

Some people may argue that a water bottle isn't equipment---if so, then you won't be using it on the stage. If you say "but I'm going to use it!" then it is equipment, and you'd better have it stowed according to your division requirements before the start signal---and have it there for the entire match.

That's an interesting point -- but what do you do about the definition of Allied Equipment?

Allied equipment . . . .Holsters, magazines, speed loading devices and/or their respective pouches.

Silent on the topic of water bottles.....

That is a good point---it doesn't say anything about anything else considered "equipment," so it isn't covered. On the other hand, that does mean that I'll tell them that since it isn't "allied equipment" they don't get to use it on my stage.

We don't tell people what glasses to wear, what kind of hat, what kneepads (if any), ankle braces, etc---those aren't "equipment," those are personal choices---but if they walk up with a "special rock" they want to use to activate items or operate things on a stage, then I'm going to tell them it isn't going to happen, and we can call the RM if they want. (And if the RM rules differently, then his way is the way I'll run the stage.)

Magazines, though---those are "allied equipment", and I don't have a single problem with their use as activators for mechanisms as long as the WSB doesn't specify something else.

[Nik Habicht]

I guess I've always thought of it as an "equipment" problem---for example, there are requirements about equipment placement and the fact that you can't change such throughout the match. If there is a specific item that you use specifically to activate something, then it is "equipment" and it had better be something that you have on you throughout the match.

5.2.3.2: Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match.

Mags and such work perfectly well---and if someone wants to throw a mag away on that, they are welcome to do so. Now, if someone straps on/pockets/holds something new to use just on that stage, then they are going to have an issue, because they are changing their equipment mid-match, and we don't allow that.

Just another way of looking at it...

Some people may argue that a water bottle isn't equipment---if so, then you won't be using it on the stage. If you say "but I'm going to use it!" then it is equipment, and you'd better have it stowed according to your division requirements before the start signal---and have it there for the entire match.

That's an interesting point -- but what do you do about the definition of Allied Equipment?

Allied equipment . . . .Holsters, magazines, speed loading devices and/or their respective pouches.

Silent on the topic of water bottles.....

That is a good point---it doesn't say anything about anything else considered "equipment," so it isn't covered. On the other hand, that does mean that I'll tell them that since it isn't "allied equipment" they don't get to use it on my stage.

We don't tell people what glasses to wear, what kind of hat, what kneepads (if any), ankle braces, etc---those aren't "equipment," those are personal choices---but if they walk up with a "special rock" they want to use to activate items or operate things on a stage, then I'm going to tell them it isn't going to happen, and we can call the RM if they want. (And if the RM rules differently, then his way is the way I'll run the stage.)

Magazines, though---those are "allied equipment", and I don't have a single problem with their use as activators for mechanisms as long as the WSB doesn't specify something else.

As an RO I don't want to crimp the shooter's style or idea, but I have to balance that with competitive equity. I also realize that if I get that decision wrong, it could go to arbitration, so it's best to get the RM involved from the get-go -- since he'll either be overturning my decision, or defending it in front of the arb committee.....

From the RM perspective -- one of the duties is to assist the staff in making good decisions, and having them apply those equitably. So an RM should welcome the question, in advance of "the problem."

[Mrdwayne0405]

I think I'm gonna hook that water bottle to my belt for my next shoot... wow...

[Skydiver]

I think I'm gonna hook that water bottle to my belt for my next shoot... wow...

There are some people who have a slot on their belt for a bottle of Pro-Grip. If you are using Pro-Grip anyway, can probably always carry it around and just throw that bottle as activator when needed.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Skydiver

[spanky]

Hell, I did it (inadvertently) at the Gator Classic this year. I reloaded as I was starting to step on a stomp box and my magazine hit it before my foot did.