JakeMartens Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 [breaking off from the division modification thread.] Fill the survey how you would like USPSA Production to change it's round count limit. Discuss below the pros and cons of your choice. The results of the poll say it all, IMHO. It is a dead issue. Yes Let's find another horse to beat........ How about forbidden actions, cop out for poor stage design or necessary ruling....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 WOW!! was I ever surprised to see how many shooters voted to keep production division 10 round. I thought it would be more popular to up the mag count so you could blast away like open and limited division. If you want to consider production as the "Beginners division??" that would leave one more thing that the "New??" shooter wouldn't have to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 WOW!! was I ever surprised to see how many shooters voted to keep production division 10 round. I thought it would be more popular to up the mag count so you could blast away like open and limited division. It's a good thing we have open and limited divisions, then! BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Production is a "technical" division. It's fine the way it is. If I want to shoot without mag changes I'll shoot limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HI5-O Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I've been shooting in Open for years and having fun. For the last 2 months I've been shooting in Production and I don't see it as a "beginners" division. It's a lot tougher than I thought it would be and it's not because of the 10 round limit (we have to shoot 10 rounds in open). Or maybe it's because I'm chasing the open shooters ? Increasing the production round limit to 15 would be like shooting in limited so why would I want to shoot production when I get a better trigger pull with my limited gun? Just my thoughts. Gotta go practice now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leadslinger275 Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 Production is a "technical" division. It's fine the way it is. If I want to shoot without mag changes I'll shoot limited. Most of the top GM's in my section either started in Production or still currently compete in Production division. Completely agree it is a "technical" division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 (edited) Originally I was a move it to 15 guy, largely for the noobs. I have seen them struggle, typically with steel, and run out of mags before a COF is completed. Not something that will encourage the average newcomer to return for more of the same. As I have thought about this though I don't think we should change the divisions to accomodate new shooters. What I think would be ideal for newbies is when they show up that we encourage them, depending on skill set, to shoot Limited minor until they get a handle on our game and then consider advancing to Production when their skill sets improve. No noob is going win at their first match even shooting major (at least not where I shoot) so there is nothing to lose and less chance for frustration. Edited December 18, 2011 by Neomet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two shoes Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Originally I was a move it to 15 guy, largely for the noobs. I have seen them struggle, typically with steel, and run out of mags before a COF is completed. Not something that will encourage the average newcomer to return for more of the same. As I have thought about this though I don't think we should change the divisions to accomodate new shooters. What I think would be ideal for newbies is when they show up that we encourage them, depending on skill set, to shoot Limited minor until they get a handle on our game and then consider advancing to Production when their skill sets improve. No noob is going win at their first match even shooting major (at least not where I shoot) so there is nothing to lose and less chance for frustration. THIS^^^^ As a relatively new shooter, I met up with a guy that was starting out at the same time. He chose to shoot limited minor because he wanted to have the extra capacity. I chose Production because I only had 2 hicap mags and the rest were 10 round mags... Of course I did run out of ammo in the RM300 this year on the stage with all that steel... but that was lack of skill... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 (edited) Has anyone thought to ask WHY IPSC went to 15 rounds? Could it be that nearly all full-size Production handguns have a higher capacity than 10 rounds? Maybe they are just keeping inline with current, production technologies? If you want 10 rounds or less, shoot L-10 or SS, I say I do agree that changing the round count can and will water down the achievements of those that came before, and it would probably require everyone to re-classify in the "new" Production division. That would kinda suck. To me, one of the most narrow-minded and dangerous expressions is, "because that's the way we've always done it..." Just food fer thought... I voted for 15 rounds, but that is my opinion based on having done this for a very short period of time thus far...also meant as a "fresh look", and purely from a state of the art point of view. As for the gamesmanship side of it, it really doesn't matter how many rounds we are limited to, as long as we all have the same amount. Some could say we should only have 5 rounds Edited December 20, 2011 by ErichF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 To me, one of the most narrow-minded and dangerous expressions is, "because that's the way we've always done it..." Just food fer thought... I hear that one a lot. Especially from the older crowd. I understand why the 10 round limit was first implemented but times change and we need to change with them. Like I said before... Some people just don't like change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badchad Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I do agree that changing the round count can and will water down the achievements of those that came before, and it would probably require everyone to re-classify in the "new" Production division. That would kinda suck. FWIW, most of the classifiers have mandatory reloads and low round counts so the old classifier scores would remain valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 To me, one of the most narrow-minded and dangerous expressions is, "because that's the way we've always done it..." Just food fer thought... It's a good thing no one is making that argument, then. There are several perfectly legitimate arguments for keeping the 10 round limit, and most of them have been explained ad nauseum in this and similar threads. If you read this thread and come away thinking the only reason we want the 10 round limit is becaue that's the way it's "always been done", then you've missed some important posts. FWIW, change just to "keep up with the times" can be a problem, too. I'd cite the resident of a certain house in DC, but that'd probably get the moderators excited. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 Has anyone thought to ask WHY IPSC went to 15 rounds? Could it be that nearly all full-size Production handguns have a higher capacity than 10 rounds? Maybe they are just keeping inline with current, production technologies? Sorry, but...no. IPSC went to 15 rounds after having the division wide open, full capacity for a number of years. They didn't UP the limit in Production -- they Reduced it. What they finally realized was they had created yet another equipment race, to see who could stuff the most rounds in their box-compliant Production guns. The CZ-based platforms were winning that battle and became the defacto must-have gun. In other words, they made a deliberate, calculated move away from 'current production technologies'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErichF Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 So why 15 and not 10? I never said they went up or down. The question was why 15? Why not 12? Or 13? What's the average, full size, off-the-shelf Production Gun capacity? Gamesmanship aside, I just don't see any reasons for not having the Division be reflective of what is actually on the market for Production guns. I'm not trying to change anything, BTW. I'm just looking at this from a different POV. As far as the game itself goes, I don't really care if we have to load 10, 5, 13, 16, or whatever, as long as it's consistent. But if you are going to call it "Production Division", then the capacity rules should reflect what Production guns average for capacity. Notice I said "average". I'm not saying that I get to load 19+1 in my XDm while you get to only load 16 in your XD. That's not consistent and a line does indeed have to be drawn somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 With the exception of the crazy folks shooting their 8 shot revos in the production game I have yet to meet anyone not shooting a gun capable of taking a 15 round mag and still fitting the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I have a suspicion that the ten round capacity the government put on mags a few years back may have something to do with the round limit. And the possibility that it could return and ruin a class could be part of it. There are a lot of guns that hold more than 15 now.But by holding to 15 would stop any equipment race in the future while making it fun for those of us that aren't going to win the nationals with our talent. I'm surely not in it for the bucks. So I'm going to have as much fun as I can while progressing in the division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 With the exception of the crazy folks shooting their 8 shot revos in the production game I have yet to meet anyone not shooting a gun capable of taking a 15 round mag and still fitting the box. I guess not many people in your area break out their Glock 26's or their HK P7's every now and then to shoot a match and practice with their carry guns. Here's a lady shooting her G26 at our sectionals last year: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Has anyone thought to ask WHY IPSC went to 15 rounds? Could it be that nearly all full-size Production handguns have a higher capacity than 10 rounds? Maybe they are just keeping inline with current, production technologies? If you want 10 rounds or less, shoot L-10 or SS, I say I do agree that changing the round count can and will water down the achievements of those that came before, and it would probably require everyone to re-classify in the "new" Production division. That would kinda suck. To me, one of the most narrow-minded and dangerous expressions is, "because that's the way we've always done it..." Just food fer thought... I voted for 15 rounds, but that is my opinion based on having done this for a very short period of time thus far...also meant as a "fresh look", and purely from a state of the art point of view. As for the gamesmanship side of it, it really doesn't matter how many rounds we are limited to, as long as we all have the same amount. Some could say we should only have 5 rounds IPSC went DOWN to 15 rounds to eliminate a capacity race, and make more guns competitive...... For us to move from 10 to 15 would actually make fewer guns viable for the division..... And, personally, one of the things I really like about Production is that it is a different cup of tea, from the rest of the divisions, which are pretty similar.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 So why 15 and not 10? I never said they went up or down. The question was why 15? Why not 12? Or 13? What's the average, full size, off-the-shelf Production Gun capacity? Gamesmanship aside, I just don't see any reasons for not having the Division be reflective of what is actually on the market for Production guns. There was some opposition to the move. I'm pretty certain that they couldn't have gotten the votes for a reduction to 10, but could get them for 15..... I'm not trying to change anything, BTW. I'm just looking at this from a different POV. As far as the game itself goes, I don't really care if we have to load 10, 5, 13, 16, or whatever, as long as it's consistent. But if you are going to call it "Production Division", then the capacity rules should reflect what Production guns average for capacity. Notice I said "average". I'm not saying that I get to load 19+1 in my XDm while you get to only load 16 in your XD. That's not consistent and a line does indeed have to be drawn somewhere. The name of the division has been its biggest problem since inception..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aglifter Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Our sport is similar to motor racing - its the marketing impetus behind product development. Without USPSA, I really doubt there would be G34s, 2011s, or XDms, etc. In my, nearly useless, opinion, we don't need to provide any pressure for more capacity - that will always be there. However, letting different ideas of ergonomics, layout, etc compete in an environment which makes any capacity greater than 10 immaterial, seems beneficial to me. The only change going to 15 rounds would do, is make it impossible for any of the 45s - and maybe some of the 40s - to be competitive. It makes the division different, but ultimately pointless compared to limited. Its the same reason why I agree, I suppose, w. not having major. I might support major more if I could make it using 38 super, 357 Sig, or 9x23, though - mostly because I really like 38 Super, and think I would like 9x23 - I find the caliber restriction silly. I think anyone savvy enough to try to make major in a caliber under 40 is also going to be savvy enough to know which guns it can be tried in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dravz Posted December 27, 2011 Share Posted December 27, 2011 Voted 10. If Production changed to 15, I would just move over to SS. Not sure if that is a pro or con though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 (edited) Why in the world does anybody want to rehash this yet again???? From the poll, the results haven't changed... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=116250&view=findpost&p=1317834 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=100567&view=findpost&p=1147137 http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=92608&view=findpost&p=1061909 Edited December 31, 2011 by G-ManBart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 I like change... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 But if you change it to only 15 then my Glock is going to go on strike for another increase to 17 then CZ is going to want 18. So let's not throw the baby out with the bath water (history check needed for that one). It's worked for 10 years so let's give it another 10 and check again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted December 31, 2011 Share Posted December 31, 2011 Why in the world does anybody want to rehash this yet again???? From the poll, the results haven't changed... http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1317834 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1147137 http://www.brianenos...dpost&p=1061909 Stop it. Stop it right there. Don't you dare go trying to confuse this issue with facts and logic. (it's an unfair tactic ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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