ss+P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 who cares if it was legal or not, did you and the others that where there have fun, that is all that matters. man i really think some people just like to try and enforce to many rules to much of the time. i get it for majors and other big matches, but for s*its sake it was a local match let em have fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Awesome. How many buckets had to die to run that stage for the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) who cares if it was legal or not, did you and the others that where there have fun, that is all that matters. man i really think some people just like to try and enforce to many rules to much of the time. i get it for majors and other big matches, but for s*its sake it was a local match let em have fun I care. It's not about enforcing the rules to your detriment, it's about following the rules to everyone's betterment. Just because you don't care, doesn't make those who care wrong. You don't get to adopt a morally superior position because you don't care. Legal stages are fun stages. So, I care. Now what? The other side of your coin is a lazy ass stage designer who wants everyone to shoot the stage like he wants it shot and instead of creating a legal stage just breaks the rules for ego's sake. The stage discussed would be legal as physically created and left with, "Upon start signal engage targets as and when visible from within the shooting area." If the shooter wants his easy (or not so easy) C or D shot instead of the A through the bucket, let him. That's freestyle. Shooter solves. Shooter decides. Also, we saw a 25% jump in attendance at out club when we promised (and delivered) only legal stages (we actually promised Level II legal stages). Shooters like knowing they aren't going to encounter stupidity like: Comstock, 30 rnd stage with only 5 targets with a stage description which read, "Upon start signal engage the targets freestyle with two shots each, perform a mandatory reload, engage the targets with two shots each strong handed, peform a mandatory reload and engage the targets with 2 shots each weak handed all from with the shooters box." Lets see, more than 8 shots from one position, all targets from one position, mandates reloads, mandates one-handed, the list goes on. As a single stacker I had to shoot 8 reload(1), shoot 2, mandatory reload(2), shoot 8, reload(2), shoot 2, mandatory reload(4), shot 8, reload(5), shot 2. I only carry 4 mags on my belt... Should I have to go a rear pocket on an illegal stage so that you or someone else can say, "for sh*t's sake, it was a local match?" I don't think so, friend. Here's a much better question, what's so wrong with having the rather small amount of professionalism to actually read the rule book and make legal stages? Nothing is my answer to that rhetorical question. Better yet, attend the Level I NROI and know for certain. Edited December 23, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) Sure, no problem! Da rule: 1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course). I counted 24 rounds in the orange shirt guy video. That makes it a long course since there are more than 16 rounds. The level one exception does not allow calling out engagement rules for a long course. So, if the buckets are not called out in the WSB, the shooter would be perfectly legal shooting around them. It it was called out in the WSB, the stage would not be legal. A simple fix would be to reduce the round count to 16 or less to fit the criteria for a medium or short course. Does that help? Later, Chuck I remember another 10+ page thread about this... the parentheses refer to specifying a mandatory reload, not the engagement of a target arrays. Grammatically the rule stinks, and obviously opens up differing interpretations. It would be better if it read: 1.1.5.1a Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. 1.1.5.1b Level I matches may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. I still think the stage is "legal" for Level I, even if it's not... looks like fun. I hosted an NROI Level I earlier this year and did all the driving and hosting of the RMI. We discussed that rule. He taught the entire class differently that what how you would interpret it. In Level I Short and Medium stages you can use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads. You can not do those things in Level I Long Courses was his very clear instruction. The parenthesis don't refer to a portion of the preceding sentence but act as a conditional to the entire sentence. Edited December 23, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centermass Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 The parenthesis don't refer to a portion of the preceding sentence but act as a conditional to the entire sentence. I respectfully disagree. Is a shooting box not just a small "shooting area"? I have shot long courses with separate "shooting areas" comprised of several typical shooting boxes. It was still shoot as and when available, with no other restrictions other than some targets were only available from certain boxes. I'm not sure how the (not in a long course) refers to the first part of the rule before the comma. It reads to me as clarification of "in short and medium courses only." BTW... I read your post before the edit, and it wasn't clear to me why a ruling by NROI would be necessary, can you explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) Centermass- because ruling would settle disagreement as to interpretation differences. You think one way. I another. I'm quoting an RMI from a level I class earlier this year. If that's not good enough then a ruling or Amidon opinion would be the next step. Just because you seen illegal stages not challenged doesn't make em legal. Ive shot stages clearly illegal because I knew raising the point was fruitless. I've raised the point and had the match director blow off the rules. Using shooting boxes in a long course would also be illegal. But, hey, run your matches the way you like. Edited December 25, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 (edited) I submitted the sentence to my English major wife. The sentence is properly worded to indentify three things you can do at Levrl I short and medium courses: use shooting boxes, specify where and when targets may be engaged, and mandate reloads. Further you are prohibited from doing those things in a long course even at a Level I match. The RMI said the same. Merry Christmas and here's a wish that all your stages are legal next year. Edited December 26, 2011 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) who cares if it was legal or not, did you and the others that where there have fun, that is all that matters. man i really think some people just like to try and enforce to many rules to much of the time. i get it for majors and other big matches, but for s*its sake it was a local match let em have fun I care. I'm one of those silly rule guys who strive for level 2 legal stages at my level 1 match. Steven, I'm no English major but I am a self proclaimed grammar Nazi and I agree. Edited December 26, 2011 by spanky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cd662 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I like how every thread has to turn into a rules pissing match. This stage looks fun. Coincidentally, I was just watching some Colt sponsored west coast challenge from 1994 on YouTube where the stage winners would win money, and there was no overall winner. One of the stages had mandatory "zig zagging" with small boxes that had to be stepped into. Rob Leatham was pulling off some awesome stuff in the video. I think having the chance to approach a stage a few ways can be fun and dynamic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmdCtzn Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I think when you have to have so many range lawyers analyzing a sentence, the rules have obviously become an obstacle to the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangGreg66 Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) This was a fun stage and I'll agree 100% that it was one of those that you want to run 3-4 times and see if doing it a diffrent way would be any faster. Awesome. How many buckets had to die to run that stage for the day? I was on the first squad for the day and surprisingly enough there were only a couple holes in the barrels when we finished with them. I'm not sure at the end of the day thought. A friend of mine, Daggar10k, had an interesting time on it and wanted to run it again too... but for a diffrent reason, haha Edited December 26, 2011 by MustangGreg66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) Sure, no problem! Da rule: 1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course). I counted 24 rounds in the orange shirt guy video. That makes it a long course since there are more than 16 rounds. The level one exception does not allow calling out engagement rules for a long course. So, if the buckets are not called out in the WSB, the shooter would be perfectly legal shooting around them. It it was called out in the WSB, the stage would not be legal. A simple fix would be to reduce the round count to 16 or less to fit the criteria for a medium or short course. Does that help? Later, Chuck I remember another 10+ page thread about this... the parentheses refer to specifying a mandatory reload, not the engagement of a target arrays. Grammatically the rule stinks, and obviously opens up differing interpretations. It would be better if it read: 1.1.5.1a Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged. 1.1.5.1b Level I matches may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only. I still think the stage is "legal" for Level I, even if it's not... looks like fun. I hosted an NROI Level I earlier this year and did all the driving and hosting of the RMI. We discussed that rule. He taught the entire class differently that what how you would interpret it. In Level I Short and Medium stages you can use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads. You can not do those things in Level I Long Courses was his very clear instruction. The parenthesis don't refer to a portion of the preceding sentence but act as a conditional to the entire sentence. I think this one is poorly written and could, justifiably, be valid with either reading. JT Edited December 26, 2011 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 I think when you have to have so many range lawyers analyzing a sentence, the rules have obviously become an obstacle to the sport. Without commenting directly on this specific stage... Our sport is Freestyle. That is the basis. Any exemption to that is to allow for local clubs that might be short on supplies, props, manpower, etc. It's not to force non-freestyle shooting in place of freestyle. I strive not to use the exemptions for Level I matches. I strongly encourage stage designers I speak with not to use Level I exemptions unless totally needed. "Fun" might be a good rational to cheat that a bit, but I know from years of experience and studying these type of topics...that when you get away from the rule book, that is when you start seeing problems pop up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanky Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 after actually watching the video i find it hard to believe that you couldn't have "freestyled" those targets without going through the buckets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted December 26, 2011 Share Posted December 26, 2011 (edited) after actually watching the video i find it hard to believe that you couldn't have "freestyled" those targets without going through the buckets. Hard cover target on all parts not through the bucket. Done deal, noway to hit anything other than what is intended and no reason to state that the shots have to pass through buckets. That is if it was needed at all... hard to tell from the video. JT Edited December 26, 2011 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AR Gunner Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Legal or not, the stage looked like a lot of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sargenv Posted January 12, 2012 Share Posted January 12, 2012 Also, we saw a 25% jump in attendance at out club when we promised (and delivered) only legal stages (we actually promised Level II legal stages). Shooters like knowing they aren't going to encounter stupidity like: We regularly have anywhere from 60-90 shooters at our club level match.. 25% added to that would be detrimental and make for very long days as we only have 5 shooting bays.. I shot that stage and while I grumbled a little bit, it was fun to shoot.. legal, illegal, oh well.. too late to throw it out now.. Yes, they could have snow fenced it off completely thereby making it completely blocked off.. or you shoot it through the buckets and make your A hits and move along.. I guess I could have argued the procedural when I took a shot outside the bucket, but then, I've already signed my score sheet.. too late for that now.. If/when you come to our matches, you can tell us how/what is legal/illegal, and if that's the case, we'll toss the stage.. at the time, no one argued it, they shot, and we had a fun match.. We've been lucky (unlucky?) in that it hasn't rained appreciably in months, which is bad for the water storage but awesome for range days.. Until then, I'll inform the masses at our range that such a stage will from now on be deemed illegal, unless there are less than 25 rounds.. happy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) A bit more info: The stage designer stepped forward to help us out. He doesn't shoot that much anymore, and probably didn't pick up on the short/medium course vs long course thing. The safety committee that checks the stages in the morning for safety and rules compliance right before the match missed that too, and we (yes, I'm on the committee and was there that morning) are all certified RO's and regular shooters. The MD who was there the previous day when the stage was put up missed it as well. We all blew it. If we had remembered the restriction, what would we have done? Thrown the stage out? No, not with 80 plus shooters expecting five stages. Redone the stage completely? Not enough time. Modified the targets as suggested? Perhaps, but again, time was short. Modified the WSB? That's the most likely, since, as was pointed out, the best points were available only through the buckets anyway. As it was, we had a fun stage that was would have been legal if we had modded the WSB, but we missed the opportunity. We'll try a bit harder the next time. Really, though, we do toe the line pretty close just about always, but everybody misses one once in a while, especially when you put on 50 matches a year, mostly with the same people each time. BTW, Vince, I have two stages ready for you for the upcoming sectional. I promise they will be legal in every way possible Edited January 13, 2012 by kevin c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Cline Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 (edited) Also, we saw a 25% jump in attendance at out club when we promised (and delivered) only legal stages (we actually promised Level II legal stages). Shooters like knowing they aren't going to encounter stupidity like: We regularly have anywhere from 60-90 shooters at our club level match.. 25% added to that would be detrimental and make for very long days as we only have 5 shooting bays.. I shot that stage and while I grumbled a little bit, it was fun to shoot.. legal, illegal, oh well.. too late to throw it out now.. Yes, they could have snow fenced it off completely thereby making it completely blocked off.. or you shoot it through the buckets and make your A hits and move along.. I guess I could have argued the procedural when I took a shot outside the bucket, but then, I've already signed my score sheet.. too late for that now.. If/when you come to our matches, you can tell us how/what is legal/illegal, and if that's the case, we'll toss the stage.. at the time, no one argued it, they shot, and we had a fun match.. We've been lucky (unlucky?) in that it hasn't rained appreciably in months, which is bad for the water storage but awesome for range days.. Until then, I'll inform the masses at our range that such a stage will from now on be deemed illegal, unless there are less than 25 rounds.. happy? Actually when I visit I don't make a big deal out of the illegal stages. I might point it out quitely to a person with influence so they don't make the mistake again and then I shut up and shoot the stages they put together. The stage was legal as constructed, illegal in the WSB requirement to shoot through the barrells. Leave the written stage briefing something like, "Uposn start signal engage targets from with the shooting area," and it's a wonderful stage. I fully expected that all or nearly all would have shot the stage as intended by the designer had the WSB been so worded. Now, I'm happy. Btw, poor you, not being able to handle 25% more shooters... I wish I had that problem; matches around here gather around 50 shooters. Edited January 23, 2012 by Steven Cline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMC Posted January 23, 2012 Share Posted January 23, 2012 That was a fun stage and a very similar bucket arrangement turned up at another club the following month. I broke then down into two groups, right 4 and left 4, If numberd R-L 1,2,3,4 across the top and then R-L 5,6,7,8 acoss the bottom, I approached and shot 4,3 then squat and shoot 7,8 then stand and turn to the left and shoot 2 step the left shoot 1 then squat and shoot 5,6. Seemed to work for me, 14.64 112 points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParaGunner Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Cool stage,definitely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollis Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 (edited) Here is one stage from swedish masters, Edited January 26, 2012 by Bollis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lawboy Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 Here is one stage from swedish masters, Now that was a cool stage. What was a competitive time on that stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bollis Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 The stage winner of production division got 25,99s, standard 21,83s and open 20,12s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MustangGreg66 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Awesome. How many buckets had to die to run that stage for the day? I came accross these the other day so I thought I'd take a picture for you. A few of them took some good damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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