FTDR: can it be issued for ignoring cover?

[98006]

We had some shooters from a different shooting sport shoot recently . the first stage they were confused about the use of cover and seemed upset at the procedural calls. they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

I know the SO reasonably well so I asked him about it, and if they should not get an FTDR for ignoring the rules.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

[Fullauto_Shooter]

We had some shooters from a different shooting sport shoot recently . the first stage they were confused about the use of cover and seemed upset at the procedural calls. they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

I know the SO reasonably well so I asked him about it, and if they should not get an FTDR for ignoring the rules.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

Those damn sporting clays guys at it again, huh?

[Cy Soto]

they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

Though personally I don't agree with the call, according to the Rulebook, yes, you can.

C 1. Competitors will not attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques. This is the Failure To Do Right rule.

[Steve Koski]

These guys are IDPA members?!? Or is this a club that lets non-members shoot (forever)?

That could be the source of the problem. Non-IDPA members showing up for some trigge time, don't care about IDPA, not members, never gonna be members, not interested in the rules.

It's up to the SO & MD of course. If you show up and don't give a flying #^@* about following IDPA rules, even when they are explained to you... that could be viewed as unsportsmanlike conduct.

Here is a clip from the rulebook:

Page 14 & 15:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

A. Adds twenty (20) seconds to total score.

B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise

the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of

inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques.

C. Is assessed for unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions,

or the use of illegal equipment, which, in the opinion of the

MD, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting

sport. This will result in an FTDR or DQ from the entire

match at the discretion of the MD. Repeated offenses

reported to the AC or HQ can result in having membership

revoked.

D. Examples: (Non-inclusive list)

1. Firing extra rounds so that you may reload at a more

convenient time.

2. Purposely committing a procedural error because

your score will be better even with the penalty

3. Not reloading to fire one more round because your

score will be better even with the miss.

[98006]

these were new shooters to IDPA, but not to the shooting sports. A's & B's. Our club requires you to be an IDPA member and you get a freebie on the first one.

[Punkin Chunker]

We had some shooters from a different shooting sport shoot recently . the first stage they were confused about the use of cover and seemed upset at the procedural calls. they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

I know the SO reasonably well so I asked him about it, and if they should not get an FTDR for ignoring the rules.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

Although it probably shouldn't matter, I wonder how the PE was awarded to them -- after an explanation of what they had done and an explanation of how to avoid the PE, or as a 'gotcha' to show they weren't such hot shooters after all?

Were they shooters who strolled in off the street, or shooters invited by a member?

For the first -- after the same courtesy that would be given to anyone not familiar with the sport, PEs where appropriate, an FTDR for flagrant 'in your face' violation, and 'DQ/pack your toys' is in the same rule for unsportsmanlike conduct.

For the second, an FTDR and a sidebar with their host about discussing sportsmanship with them, and if that doesn't work -- they obviously would rather be shooting their own sport, and should immediately be given the opportunity to do so -- somewhere else.

[CAB33]

Sounds like so much fun.

[IronEqualizer]

At my match I would DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct. It sounds like they were just being a$$hats and ruined the day for the rest of the squad. If they thought it was totally acceptable to completely ignore the rules because they didn't understand them, then they are not much of sportsmen no matter what discipline they are shooting or what rank they are.

[GmanCdp]

We had some shooters from a different shooting sport shoot recently . the first stage they were confused about the use of cover and seemed upset at the procedural calls. they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

I know the SO reasonably well so I asked him about it, and if they should not get an FTDR for ignoring the rules.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

Those damn sporting clays guys at it again, huh?

Hahaha..the year was 1978 and at the local trap club in town where I helped out some as a kid, a friend and me was gathering up some non hit clays and was setting up and shooting them with our 357's and a couple of them old Fockers yelling out," you G&?!/"@)$ kids don't be running around with those guns!!! You might fall and shoot someone..All along while they were holding their beer's and shotguns...

[GOF]

Just my thoughts: but, I would have awarded a PE for the first cover violation and explained to them why. A second PE for the second violation, and another conversation. If, during that conversation, they, basically told me "We don't care about the Rules we are just here to shoot... OK, an FTDR for each subsequent violation.

If they object to those 20 second dings... then a DQ. If they have been told, and say "Screw your rules" the DQ is warranted.

[Pat Miles]

We had some shooters from a different shooting sport shoot recently . the first stage they were confused about the use of cover and seemed upset at the procedural calls. they proceeded to just ignore cover warnings and cover altogether the rest of the match.

I know the SO reasonably well so I asked him about it, and if they should not get an FTDR for ignoring the rules.

So should something like this get a FTDR?

Those damn sporting clays guys at it again, huh?

Probably brought their shotguns too!

Pat

[Cy Soto]

If they object to those 20 second dings... then a DQ. If they have been told, and say "Screw your rules" the DQ is warranted.

DQ or not, I doubt these folks will be back to this IDPA match. Sadly, this is the type of attitude that perpetuates the "us vs. them" mentality in the shooting sports.

[CHARLES D]

We have a few shooters show up to an IDPA Match with the same intent. Instead of making them mad and not wanting to show up again, we collect their $$$ and score it as a USPSA category. Keeps everyone happy and the club still made a few dollars.

[Cy Soto]

We have a few shooters show up to an IDPA Match with the same intent. Instead of making them mad and not wanting to show up again, we collect their $$$ and score it as a USPSA category. Keeps everyone happy and the club still made a few dollars.

A similar thing is done at one of our local IDPA clubs. They have an "Outlaw" division for all the USPSA Limited shooters. They still get hit with cover penalties but no one advocates FTDR's or DQ's based on these. This division allows the use of USPSA Limited-legal gear including the use of fully loaded magazines.

This is a local match and no prizes are handed out. At the end of the day all shooters are competing only for bragging rights and brownie points so no one cares that the Outlaws are not an IDPA recognized division.

[ihatepickles]

I shoot IDPA matches for extra trigger time. My focus is USPSA. I'm a member of both and follow the rules of both. My point being, that there's people who prefer USPSA but still have the decency to respect the IDPA rules when we're playing that game.

Don't let this become an "us versus them" debate.

If shooters willfully ignored rules, score it like a national event and don't feel the need to help out shooters who don't respect your sport.

[Jaxshooter]

This is a problem at some clubs because the owners want the money from as many shooters as possible. I have been told in the past just to ignore them and let them shoot. It does disrupt the other squad members that are trying to follow the rules.

[Cy Soto]

It does disrupt the other squad members that are trying to follow the rules.

How so?

[98006]

I also shoot both and follow the rules. I started IDPA first so going to the other sport, to me was less difficult. The shooters were the opposite. The other sport was their first sport.

I, personally always want people to have fun. still gotta follow the rules though. In my area, the other sport pretty much shuts down for the winter. one match a month is the norm depending on how far you want to drive.

I looked at their scores. If it was not for the procedural and such, they would ahve done pretty well in raw time and PD.

Can anyone point me to how outlaw rules work?

[freeidaho]

Can anyone point me to how outlaw rules work?

In short, they don't. The club could/should loose its affilitation to IDPA if the AC were to push the point.... and they should. Each IDPA club signs a contract with HQ every year that says they will follow the rules to the letter, (the contract's words, not mine.) And of course an outlaw division is not in the rulebook.

On IDPA match day, the rules should be followed.... all of em. There is no wording in the rulebook that says "it is only a club match, so ignore whatever you want."

If the club wants to hold something other kind of match, and not use the IDPA term, then more power to them.

kr

[sirveyr]

It does disrupt the other squad members that are trying to follow the rules.

How so?

Like when the football team shows up in full pads and helmets to play a game with the rugby guys. It's kinda the same, so no one will care, right?

[juan]

if they dont use cover they get a pe. whats the big deal?

[IronEqualizer]

if they dont use cover they get a pe. whats the big deal?

I guess it's the same as if someone totally ignored fault lines for an entire match. Just give them a procedural no big deal right? There are specific points set forth by stage designers that allow for safe engagement of the targets. Ignoring cover positions and or fault lines raises the risks of unsafe target engagement. While I think no safety infractions were broken do you see how disruptive to the squad and match someone who totally ignores the rules could be.

[Cy Soto]

Like when the football team shows up in full pads and helmets to play a game with the rugby guys. It's kinda the same, so no one will care, right?

I have never seen a football team play a rugby team nor do I understand the similarities between these two games so I cannot form an opinion.

I guess it's the same as if someone totally ignored fault lines for an entire match. Just give them a procedural no big deal right? There are specific points set forth by stage designers that allow for safe engagement of the targets. Ignoring cover positions and or fault lines raises the risks of unsafe target engagement. While I think no safety infractions were broken do you see how disruptive to the squad and match someone who totally ignores the rules could be.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Ignoring the use of cover is not a safety concern. By the same token (for the most part) ignoring the existence of fault lines will get you procedural penalties up the wazoo but they won't earn you a DQ unless the shooter does something that is deemed unsafe.

What has been suggested here by others is to selectively DQ shooters who have not done anything unsafe. Can you give them multiple procedural penalties? Yes! Can you hit them with an FTDR? Most certainly! Should you DQ them because you want to prove a point? I don't think that is a fair call but there are those who will disagree.

[Steve Koski]

Cy,

"Half" IDPA matches degrade the sport considerably.

The SO's now have to treat competitors differently. Let some use illegal gear, but not let others. Ding some for not using cover, but not others. Let some do speed reloads, but not others. It really is difficult to keep track of exactly which set of rules to use for a particular shooter when you're running 120 shooters over the course of a match.

Eventually the SO's wear down and get weak/inconsistent/gunshy at enforcing IDPA rules. Then you don't have an IDPA match.

Ask me how I know.

Koski

[The_Vigilante]

When a shooter deliberately breaks and flaunts the rules I consider this Unsportsmanlike Conduct and agree a DQ is in order after several warnings. If the shooter does this in a CCW match I have no problem. A regular IDPA match is no place for these types of shooters IMHO. Oh yea, btw the DQ'd shooter doesn't get a refund of his entry fee either!

Edited November 29, 2011 by The_Vigilante