How to check for a Squib.

[jhgtyre]

Sorry Flex,

but I do believe that it would still qualify as ammo: bullet is there (in the barrel), brass, powder and primer is there (in the "squib puller").

So you have the wax plug and cardboard disc in all of your ammo right?

I would think that any device used to remove the squib would become a tool. As Vince points out some items aren't always tools but they certainly can become tools.

-ld

[Skywalker]

Sorry Flex,

but I do believe that it would still qualify as ammo: bullet is there (in the barrel), brass, powder and primer is there (in the "squib puller").

So you have the wax plug and cardboard disc in all of your ammo right?

Why?

I can bring how many different rounds I like to a match, provided they all meet the declared PF at chrono in my gun, otherwise I'll be reclassified or shoot for fun (and no score).

[jhgtyre]

True, you got there. But when you make special purpose ammo and use it as a tool to clear a squib then it is a different matter.

-ld

[Vince Pinto]

Sky,

No, I don't consider a blank round to be a tool, at least not in the context of Rule 5.7.1.

However, with all due respect and brotherly love, (and please don't take this personally), I also find it unbelieveable that we actually have competitors out there in La-La Land who go to extraordinary lengths to create "special" rounds which they carry on their person during a COF in case they need to dislodge a bullet stuck in a barrel. Surely you can see something wrong with this picture?

Please forgive my arrogance, but I come from "The Old School". Hence if, during a COF, my gun becomes inoperable, whether it's my fault (e.g. a dud round I manufactured), or not (e.g. an actual part breakage), and if I cannot rectify it with my bare hands using the three standard IPSC gun clearance techniques, then I consider that my attempt at that COF is over, I accept what was formerly known as a "DNF" (except that I might get some score), and then I do whatever needs to be done to prevent a recurrence.

Consider things from a rule-writing perspective. Over the last 12 months, I've been asked questions which nobody from "The Old School" could ever dream up, such as "Can I run up a side-berm and shoot at targets over the top of barricades?" and "Can I shoot a target through the rear?".

As much as I think such questions are evidence that the spirit associated with IPSC is in decline, the fact remains that if one person asks such a question, I must presume that others either have similar thoughts, or they will, as a result of the question being asked. In either case, it behoves my colleagues and I to deal with the issue, but this inevitably means additional or expanded rules.

And the same applies in respect of "squib clearing rounds". Now that somebody (and this means you, my dear friend), has raised the issue, the Rules Committee will have to deal with it, one way or another. Sure, my submission above was indeed pulling your leg, but we still need to address the issue, as soon as I increase the dosage of my medication.

Finally, yes, if you send a request to rules@ipsc.org, I usually reply on behalf of the 7 member IPSC Rules Committee, but I'd like them to see such questions actually being asked by a competitor because, apart from my colleague Neil Beverley who frequents these forums, I'm beginning to suspect the other guys think I dream up such questions by myself, and this affects my annual bonus.

[Yoda]

Vince,

can I request an official position of the IPSC rules committee about this issue? I'd be very interested in the official call and the argumentations.

Sure. Send your formal request to rules@ipsc.org.

I'll surely do, but since I suspect the answer would equally come from you, we'd waste less time if you could do it right here.

Sky,

the Rules Committee consists of more people than Vince alone and stretches over all three disciplines (Handgun, Rifle and Shotgun). Any formal answer must be discussed within the group before because it might have consequences in the other disciplines. Besides that - a one man Committee isn't a real Committee. Several people may have different points of view and a broad spectrum of experience. By discussing it within the group the question will be looked at from all perspectives and this will lead to a solid thought-through decision.

[mactiger]

Sure, my submission above was indeed pulling your leg, but we still need to address the issue, as soon as I increase the dosage of my medication.

Which "flavor" medication would that be, Vince? Jamaican or Barbados?

I'll join you, my friend.

Troy

[driver8M3]

not that i would do this...but since we're already driving a few people mental, how about just carrying a spare barrel in your pocket? or is replacing gun parts mid-stage already against the rules?

[Nik Habicht]

5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. During such corrective action, the competitor must keep the muzzle of the handgun pointing safely downrange at all times. The competitor may not use rods or other tools (e.g. fixed blade knives, folding knives, "switchblade" knives, "out the front" knives, pocket knives, "multi-tools", ice picks, screwdrivers, metal files, wood files, nail files, nail clippers, nose clippers, wooden dowels, metal dowels, synthetic dowels, hammers, dremel tools, lathes or other heavy machinery, nuclear devices, live rounds of ammunition, blank rounds of ammunition, paintball rounds of ammunition, rounds of ammunition containing rubber or any other projectiles, rounds of ammuniton which use a wax or other sealant to contain the powder, keys, tweezers, cotton buds or other ear cleaning devices, dental floss, toothbrushes, toothpicks, dental examination implements, surgical implements, pens, pencils, scissors, letter openers, belt buckles, improvised explosive devices, TNT, C4, "Semtex", swords, bayonets, daggers, paper clips, hand grenades, hand grenade pins, spurs, hat pins, pieces of live or dead foliage from domestic or imported plants, golf clubs, golf tees, knitting needles, sewing needles, crochet needles, drinking straws, fibrescopes, endoscopes, anything available from the hardware section of Walmart or similar retailers etc.) to correct the malfunction. Violations will result in a zero score for the stage and twenty lashes with the cat o' nine tails, administered by the Range Master.

[innocent mode on]

Vince,

Having read the long list of tools one may not use to clear a squib, I'm left with one question: Can I pull a spare top end out of my back pocket and slap it on the gun as replacement parts? I'd safely pocket the squibbed up top end, of course, lest an R.O. would be tempted to retrieve

it for me....

[/innocent Mode]

[Nik Habicht]

not that i would do this...but since we're already driving a few people mental, how about just carrying a spare barrel in your pocket? or is replacing gun parts mid-stage already against the rules?

Doh, should have read your post first....

[Nik Habicht]

Sorry Flex,

but I do believe that it would still qualify as ammo: bullet is there (in the barrel), brass, powder and primer is there (in the "squib puller").

If it doesn't qualify as ammo, I guess you won't have any problem standing in front of the muzzle when this non-ammo is being fired, aren't you?

Vince,

can I request an official position of the IPSC rules committee about this issue? I'd be very interested in the official call and the argumentations.

Luca,

If I'm holding the timer, and hear what I think is a squib, or see you retrieving a single round from your pocket, you're gonna get a STOP so fast it'll make your head spin. Then we'll talk about it, and if your barrel is plugged, we'll score it as it stands. If it isn't, then you'll give the stage another whirl....

[driver8M3]

what if you dont hear the squib but i still reach into my pocket? just wondering if i can game you or not

[Flexmoney]

Sky,

The point I was trying to make was that...either your squib-clearing round is ammo (A), or it isn't (B ).

(A) If it is ammo, then it needs to make power factor for your declared division. I don't think a wax bullet will do that, will it?

(B ) If it isn't ammo, then it is a tool. Still not usable, right?

And, to throw in the monkey wrench...the RO can "deem" your ammo unsafe.

I just can't see where a clearing round would be legal?

[Neil Beverley]

Vince,

can I request an official position of the IPSC rules committee about this issue? I'd be very interested in the official call and the argumentations.

Luca, my friend, You're flogging a dead horse with this one. I would be amazed at anything other than a unanimous vote, and not in your favour.

Sometimes you have to know when to give in gracefully.

[Skywalker]

Well,

looks like this whole discussion got pretty hot and I'm not sure why, since I tried (maybe unsuccessfully) to make my points with all due clearness and calmness (ok, maybe a bit of bad taste humor...).

I'll sum up the main points I tried to make, then I'll accept the almost unanimous "adverse thumb" agains this practice.

1. As I stated at the very beginning of the question I raised (and please don't forget I asked a question, and tried to bring arguments in support of it, never intended to say I'm doing it right and y'all are wrong) I have brought a squib puller with me until 4 years ago, when I was told by a RO it was illegal, then I stopped to do that to comply with the request and never did it again. Seems you all missed this. I am not a guy who plays outside of the rules, and never will.

2. The squib puller is a round in all its aspects. Brass, primer, powder and lead/plated/jacketed bullet are there, even if not in the normal form we are used to. A real bullet leaves the barrel upon firing, not a wax bullet; if it meets declared PF or not is a matter of load, as it is for almost every cartridge I know of.

3. I asked for a judgement, because my feeling was that firing such round to clear a malfunction was a clever (and safe, I stress it) way to solve the problem. I didn't feel it was illegal, but I asked to be sure. I thought that, if shotgun shooters could bring to a match different ammo for different purposes (provided they all cleared the chrono verification), handgun competitors were entitled to do the same.

If the intent of the rules is "no other means of correcting a gun malfunction (of every kind) is allowed, except the use of bare hands, then we'd get rid of a lot of problems by clearly stating so (and it would actually reduce the size of the whole rule 5.7.1 ).

Thanks everybody for pointing me straight to what is acceptably within the rules and what's not.

[driver8M3]

A real bullet leaves the barrel upon firing, not a wax bullet; if it meets declared PF or not is a matter of load, as it is for almost every cartridge I know of.

i dont understand how that could be chrono'ed? at the chrono stage, how would a real bullet leave the chamber?

[Skywalker]

i dont understand how that could be chrono'ed?  at the chrono stage, how would a real bullet leave the chamber?

Easy.

At the chrono stage I'd replicate exactly what had happened.

I'd have a bullet stuck into the barrel, and then fire it with the "squib puller".

Anyway,

useless question, since this method to expel a squib has been almost unanimously deemed to be illegal.

[Garfield]

Now if you continue to disagree with the rules and/or consider them to be inequitable, fine, but please don't challenge the status quo without proposing a better solution.

I thought I did just that but I will quit now because I'm obviously annoying you. Sorry for that.

[Garfield]

Arvid,

on second thoughts, would you be so kind to point out for me what rule would allow you to DQ a competitor that is using what you deem to be unsafe ammunition? 

Oops, slipped there !

I meant unsafe gun handling or so, but I know when to give in, which I am doing right here, right now.

[schoonie]

OK, let me get this straight;

Shooter is stopped (or stops) due to a squib. The RO (or shooter) looks at the back of the breach to see if light is coming through the barrel and if there is the shooter gets the reshoot (or reloads and finishes the COF). The parenthesis pertain to the shooter stopping himself. The problem I have with this is that I don't trust this method to be fool(read RO)proof. When I have been involved with this situation, a squib rod has been inserted into the muzzel and pushed through the barrel to the breach face thereby proving beyond a shadow of doubt that the gun is clear.

With the example of the shooter stopping himself, I don't have a problem with the light in the barrel method because as the RO I didn't think there was an unsafe condition to begin with anyway, and if the shooter chooses to continue, he does so by his own determination. I may choose to stand behind him on the first shot though!

If I stop a shooter I want absolute assurance that the barrel is clear or evidence exists for a reshoot. The reshoot is not the important factor here, the safe gun is. Being the conservative type I also would like to observe the bullet removal but I realize that this is not my responsibility.

To conclude, after a squib stoppage by the RO, I beleive that a rod is needed to verify the condition of the barrel and if sweeping is a problem an L shapped rod could be used.

Thoughts anyone?

[Hobbes]

I agree with Schoonie's point. Recently, I had a "squib" on a course of fire. When it went "poof" and the action did not cycle I realized what had happened. I said "squib" and the RO said "stop" at about the same time. The RO kept me facing down range untill he found something to drop through the barrel. The score keeper's pen wouldn't work and as someone was going for a rod, the RO wadded up a piece of paper (I beleive that is what he did) and dropped it down the muzzle. When it fell through and demonstrated that the barrel was clear he gave me a reshoot because my gun was in fact safe when he stopped me. In this case the CRO was dead set on physically verifying whether the barrel was obstructed or not. I took it as an example to follow in similiar situations in the future.

[Vince Pinto]

If I stop a shooter I want absolute assurance that the barrel is clear or evidence exists for a reshoot. The reshoot is not the important factor here, the safe gun is.

For 100% assurance, order that the gun be field stripped (on the spot or in the safety area) and then look down the barrel.

[kdj]

I'm beginning to suspect the other guys think I dream up such questions by myself, and this affects my annual bonus.

Positively, I assume and they stand in awe of your creativity ... since clearly no reasonable person could come up with this stuff