Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) I saw Chris Keen shoot a 30 round Virginia (technically not legal for anything more than level 1 match) stage, it *forced* movement and was actually a really fun looking stage. I struggled with how it was setup to not allow for shoot throughs and reshoots as a result. In the end, I decided to take a slightly different approach, and one that I believe would survive the rules if you want to shoot it as a standards stage. It will take some finesse during setup however to avoid shoot throughs, but I think with the fault line shaped as I have it, it will work. I've not set it up or shot it yet (may happen this weekend)... but I figured I'd share anyway... Start Position: Standing at wall, directly behind marks, facing downrange ‐ shoulders and hips square to wall, palms touching marks. Gun loaded and holstered as per rules 8.1.1 and 8.1.2. Stage Procedure: On signal, engage targets in keep out area A, as available from outside the fault lines. Engage targets behind barrels from within the shooting box B only. SCORING: Comstock, 22rds, 110pts TARGETS: 11 Metric, SCORING HITS: Best 2/paper START‐STOP: Audible – Last Shot Fired PENALTIES: Per current edition USPSA rule book *IF* done as a standards stage, Stage Procedure would be- String 1: On signal, engage targets from the Strong Hand side of the keep out area A with 1 round each only, perform mandatory reload and engage barrel targets from within the shooting box B with 1 round each STRONG HAND only. String 2: On signal, engage targets from the Weak Hand side of the keep out area A with 1 round each only, perform mandatory reload and engage barrel targets from within the shooting box B with 1 round each WEAK HAND only. Scoring would be - SCORING: Virginia, 22rds, 110pts TARGETS: 11 Metric, SCORING HITS: Best 2/paper START‐STOP: Audible – Last Shot Fired PENALTIES: Per current edition USPSA rule book That will live within the rules defined for Standards courses and also virginia count stages. (I believe)... Enjoy. Alan Edited November 8, 2011 by Alan Adamson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Diagram seems to be missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Diagram seems to be missing. Well, what do you know... Sorry about that, it was an IP issue that is resolved now... worked on my local lan, but across the internet it did not... Picture is there now. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 "From behind fault lines or within shooting box". Are the fault lines around the paper and the shooting box in front of the barrels? If this is the case you might want to describe that in the WSB. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 "From behind fault lines or within shooting box". Are the fault lines around the paper and the shooting box in front of the barrels? If this is the case you might want to describe that in the WSB. Pat Good feedback... I had a duh moment it appears.... I think I've resolved those issues and updated the original post... Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 In your WSB, I would add the word only after "keep out area A with 1 round each". This reinforces the no stacking rule. Also what do you want for hands touching marks, i.e. finger tips or palms. Would also add something about shooter being able to start from either side first to even it out for left handed shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 1.2.2.1 says you can't have more than 6 rounds in a given string (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified.) I would assume they meant 6 before the reload, and 6 after the reload, but that's not the way it is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yes I know about the string count issue, butt it doesn't say that has to be 6 and 6. So in this case it's 8 and 3, which still fits in the 12 limit. . Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 In your WSB, I would add the word only after "keep out area A with 1 round each". This reinforces the no stacking rule. Also what do you want for hands touching marks, i.e. finger tips or palms. Would also add something about shooter being able to start from either side first to even it out for left handed shooters. I doubt this one will ever be used as Virginia, but it would make sense to adjust as you mention if it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Adjustments made to original post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Alan FYI: The stage you saw in my video wasn't exactly a legal stage. In fact out of the 6 stages we shot that day, only 3 of them were what I would call legal. That club tends to be a little creative with their stages. Take that for what it's worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Alan, I like it. Mind if I use it at this weekend's match? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Alan FYI: The stage you saw in my video wasn't exactly a legal stage. In fact out of the 6 stages we shot that day, only 3 of them were what I would call legal. That club tends to be a little creative with their stages. Take that for what it's worth. Yes I know but it still looked like a fun stage. And so we are going to shoot a comstock version at a local match this weekend . Thanks for the motivation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skydiver Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 (edited) To keep the same flavor between the Comstock Long course and the Virginia Count Standards course, you could stipulate that the targets behind the barrel be engaged strong hand only for the Long course version: 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required. Edited November 8, 2011 by Skydiver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I see what you are trying to do and it's an interesting idea, but I have an innate prejudice against layouts that force a shooter to engage a target at an acute angle. I don't believe the rules say anything about it, but think about the fact that you are decreasing the visible width of the target and all the target zones. There is also the issue of shoot through's and misses that my hit another target. If you spread the targets out enough, that might not be a problem however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 I see what you are trying to do and it's an interesting idea, but I have an innate prejudice against layouts that force a shooter to engage a target at an acute angle. I don't believe the rules say anything about it, but think about the fact that you are decreasing the visible width of the target and all the target zones. There is also the issue of shoot through's and misses that my hit another target. If you spread the targets out enough, that might not be a problem however. As noted spacing will need to be adjusted to resolve shoot thrus. As for target orientation, it happens all the time when a target can be seen from more than one location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 To keep the same flavor between the Comstock Long course and the Virginia Count Standards course, you could stipulate that the targets behind the barrel be engaged strong hand only for the Long course version: 1.1.5.4 Medium or Long courses of fire may stipulate the use of either strong or weak hand, provided that only one hand, either strong or weak, is specified for no more than the last six (6) shots required. Yes and I've thought about that option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmdCtzn Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I like it and I will probably steal it. :-) You could run and gun it, or stand and engage everything in the A zone from near the walls, then run to the low targets. Have to be careful during set-up to get the spacing correct. Nice work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Not to piggyback on Alan's thread or stage idea, but just to give you all a reference to the stage I shot that Alan is adapting here is the video ...... It wasn't exactly legal, but it sure was fun. And Graham, the reason the targets need to be facing forward, while the shooter approaches at an angle is to give Lefty's and Righty's an equal presentation at the targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocMedic Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Alan, I like it. Mind if I use it at this weekend's match? UGGH! lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Alan, I like it. Mind if I use it at this weekend's match? go for it, why I posted it... In fact, we are going to adapt it to a 30 round version 12 center targets and 6 behind the barrels... I *really* like stages that *force* movement to shoot them fast. It's a good challenge and it makes you a better shooter... Especially the new guys! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Not to piggyback on Alan's thread or stage idea, but just to give you all a reference to the stage I shot that Alan is adapting here is the video ...... It wasn't exactly legal, but it sure was fun. And Graham, the reason the targets need to be facing forward, while the shooter approaches at an angle is to give Lefty's and Righty's an equal presentation at the targets. Thanks Chris for posting that... It's just such a *good* stage for movement, accuracy, speed, etc... I like it the more I see it! .. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Smith Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 And Graham, the reason the targets need to be facing forward, while the shooter approaches at an angle is to give Lefty's and Righty's an equal presentation at the targets. I understand that, and I also understand that there are often cases where targets are presented at an acute angle when there is more than one shooting position. But in the latter case, there is also likely a position where you can see the target full on. Perhaps this is partly because with a diagram, it can be hard to see what the true layout will be like. In the video you post, you are not very far away from the targets and they are spaced well enough that it's not as big an issue. But even with that spacing the visible width is reduced by (it looks like) about a third. If you were further away or at a narrower angle, then it might be a half. It's clearly legal but it's the sort of thing that should be approached with some care and consideration. If people get too far ahead, then you are going to have bullets hitting at an angle and instead of a clean hole, you are going to have oblong holes and perhaps even gouges. There's also a lot of changes of a 180 if someone goes too fast. It just makes me nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Shot this today at our local match. The comstock version. Had three GMs on my squad, they all had a slightly different approach. One went right, two went left. Everyone seemed to like it a lot. GMs were in the 10 second range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Adamson Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 We changed it a little... Shot it as a 30 round course with 12 targets down the middle... Instead of the walls (we were lazy to build it), we just create a similar approach, but with caution tape, and fault line that started the shooter at the corner of the triangle. It was probably 70-80' long with 3 barrels and 3 targets - middle one upside down and all hardcover except for the head ... My lowly A class (newly minted) shot that in 13 seconds! That first target was *such* a small A zone, but it was very fun to shoot this stage... a real ripper, and it's even fun to listen to it... it's just a tat,tat, small pause, repeat up to a rapid 6 shot cadence ... Chris, thanks so much for posting that and motivating me to draw it up.... Was an excellent fun stage to shoot! Got lots of great comments here! Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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