Rob Boudrie Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 It would be interesting to see what firearms companies are willing to pledge that they will make > 10 round magazines available as soon as they are legally permitted to do so. There may be some temptation to stick to a "voluntary" 10 round limit to (1) Avoid devaluing old inventory, (2) Avoid the risk of being "stuck" if the democrats get back into power, (3) avoid what some courts could see as "negligance" selling such evil items, and (4) to avoid making politicians mad. Before you conclude that it could not happen, its worth noting that some excellent gun companies had voluntary magazine bans in place prior to the introduciton of the 10 round ban or various state bans on the landscape. Glock had strict procedures in place to prvent civilians from purchasing their 33 round 9mm mags (made for the G18, but usable in any 9), and Gary Smith of Caspian told me directly they would not make any "extra long tubes" since they thought that would be held up as an example of a bad product by some legislators. Bill Ruger stated that no honest man needed a magazine > 10 rounds. So, don't assume that you'll have the availability of "name brand" > 10 round mags until the ban sunsets AND the company you are interested in expresses its willingness to sell these to civilians once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sterling White Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Bill Ruger stated that no honest man needed a magazine > 10 rounds. Its obvious that he's never seen me shoot....insurance shots are a beutiful thing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Any major gun company that isn't already ramping up production of hicaps is going to get left behind come September. Should some evil event occur and the ban get renewed, they can dump 'em overseas or to LE's. Think of the demand from shooters-- current prices are sky-high for pre-bans and there'll be an election coming up in a month that may ruin it again for everybody. "Does it come with Hi-caps?" will (again) be the most common question at the gun store counter. I'm sure there are places in the world where 10-round mags are all that can be sold (Canada?), so I don't foresee a big inventory problem. Somebody clever (Para?) should start including discount hi-cap coupons that can be redeemed in Sept, if the ban is gone-- maintain sales to shooters before the ban, plus pick up more people committed to it's sunset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 I've got genuine 3rd hand information that Glock fully plans to go whole hog and sell - (ahem!) - *standard* capacity magazines the instant the ban is off and is eagerly looking forward to doing so. It will only take one manufacturer to do this for the rest to follow. There is no way in hell anyone is going to pay $20-30 for a ten rounder, when one can get a std cap via gray market for the same price. Even if one or two moron manufacturers don't - the magazines will surely be imported. Glock 33 rounders were widely available via gray market channels before the ban, and I predict that standard caps for all makes of guns will be available through the same channels after the ban ends. Furthermore, there is such a political stigma attached to the 10 round crap, that I doubt any manufacturer will continue to feature reduced capacity guns for fear of looking like a Klinton lapdog. Hopefully the harsh lesson of S&W will be learned by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted May 24, 2004 Share Posted May 24, 2004 Oh baby, I have a wish list a mile long. I am gonna buy mags for guns I don't even own yet. If...the AWB were to be reinstated I will be very dissapointed Keep your fingers crossed. I don't see prices falling back to nothing but hoppe they(manufactures) will be reasonable about new pricing. TXAG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'm sure they will be cranking out as many mags as they can asap. They will be pre-bans if there is ever another stupid ban. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 If the AWB does sunset (the jury is still out...no one really knows what's going on behind the scenes) look for individual states to enact their own capacity limits the way Mass, N.Y. California and New Jersey did. It isn't likely this will happen in the Southern or Southwestern portion of the U.S. but it is likely to happen elsewhere. While I'm volunteering for a State Senator running for a House seat this November (as a Republican), the talk around the Republican water cooler is that both Senate and House majority leaders will "avoid" the AWB issue and leave it up to the States to decide whether to enact their own AWB legislation. I believed this was the decision that would be reached long before I heard it at my local Republican Party headquarters. Rob also has a good point regarding the liability (negligence) factor as seen by the Courts. XYZ Company used to offer XYZ pistol with a 10 round only mag NOW the same XYZ pistol has an 18 round mag shipped with the pistol. Imagine the hyperbole offered up by a trial lawyer the next time some social misfit uses an illegally obtained XYZ pistol to shoot up his place of employment or a crowded movie theatre. I'm certain this wouldn't be a problem for STI/SV but for Glock, Beretta,Sig, S&W etc... it COULD be. Maybe they feel they've been sued enough and to supply new hi-cap mags isn't worth the risk. If the gun companies "open the flood gates" gather up what you want/need ASAP because I don't believe the opportunity will last very long in some localities. Shred: * Canada is a dead issue...it's a 10 round country and is most likely to stay that way forever as is Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'm sure there are places in the world where 10-round mags are all that can be sold (Canada?), so I don't foresee a big inventory problem. Add California to the list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 The PR campaigns are already in action, but they seem to be targeting the guns, not the magazines. But the mags are part of the deal when it's renewed; it's all or nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I'm going to get Para magazines in every caliber! I hope Para will make some 140mm .45 and .40 mags and then I won't have fiddle with extended base pads. Some 170mm mags in every caliber would be cool too. And some for M1A, AR10, SR25, and a few others ... If AR magazines go down in price, I'm going to "stock up" with a lifetime supply because you never know what will happen in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 * Canada is a dead issue...it's a 10 round country and is most likely to stay that way forever as is Australia. I'm sure there are places in the world where 10-round mags are all that can be sold (Canada?), so I don't foresee a big inventory problem. Add California to the list That's what I'm saying.. there's no risk of 'obsolete' 10-round-post-ban inventory to worry about for the manufacturers-- they can be sold elsewhere. Same goes for hicaps-- there are other places in the world they can be sold if the ban renews, so it makes sense to start ramping up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I follow your point about "ratcheting up production" of hi-cap mags because there is a market for them AND 10 rounders. I question whether the U.S. consumer will be part of the hi-cap market when manufacturers factor in the"liability" and public perception issue. I guess we'll know for sure this fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Jumping way back up to the top I am glad to see Rob started this thread. Back when L10 first surfaced I posted on USPSA and wrote in to Front Site and GunGames about L10 being short sighted, and Rob who named L10, shot me down. My position was, and is again when the AWB sets, that we don't need to encourage big fish (and guns) in little ponds. We need folks like Springfield, Kimber and Colt in USPSA and the only was is with a SINGLE STACK DIVISION. We need something honoring the roots of the sport. I love em' but if you'll let me shoot my S_I in the same class, I will. We are not all Super Robbie and it is skating up hill to shoot a skinny gun in L10. This may be drifting off the thread (OK, more than a little) but I wanted to say "bravo" to Rob. Viva la High Cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I have great faith in market dynamics. Many people want hi-caps. Any manufacturer who doesn't make hi-cap magazines available will find the magazine makers moving in to their territory. If Ruger (to name one) doesn't want to offer hi-caps to the public, Mec-Gar will. When Ruger finds that they are a)Losing money in magazine sales and losing money in market share from buyers who decide "they don't want to sell me hi-caps? Fine, I'll buy from someone who does" and thus go to Sig/Beretta/Glcok/S&W and the others. The politicos who hate hi-caps will hate us regardless of what we do. I say "bleep" 'em and rub it in their faces and buy lots of hi-caps. That said, what the heck do we do with Limited 10 after the ban sunsets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 I hate to state the obvious and sound callous, but Bill Ruger is dead. I'm guessing that the people running the business now have a little more market sense than he did (not saying he wasn't a good business man, but it sure is dumb to sell out your customers). Like others have said, those that provide standard capacity mags will flourish, those who don't probably won't. AFA the divisions, leave L10 alone. There are scads of people that are still limited by their states' "laws." My question is: what becomes of the capacity restrictions in Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve223 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 Therad Drift "That said, what the heck do we do with Limited 10 after the ban sunsets?" Make it a single stack division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 and to respond to the simmian, I mean "Mr. Gorrilla", I hope we have enough sense to rescind the mag rules in all divisions. If your state restricts you, fine and you can even run a State match like that, but don't ruin the sport with false restrictions. I have shot International Production (Bolivian Nats last year), and while some of the rules are pretty "short bus" letting folks compete with high caps makes it a whole lot more fun and puts the creativity / aggressiveness back in the sport. You can shoot a high cap style plan, but still have to score minor, it is a whole new balancing act, of can you be fast enough to "outrun" minor, or is it worth it to plant here and fire up the "A's". We have barely come out of the dark ages of course design, don't take us back to the old "box to box" mentality that prevails with new designers or revo shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 I follow your point about "ratcheting up production" of hi-cap mags because there is a market for them AND 10 rounders. I question whether the U.S. consumer will be part of the hi-cap market when manufacturers factor in the"liability" and public perception issue. I guess we'll know for sure this fall. It sure would be appropriate if Glock learned from their previous experience that withholding 33 round mags from civilians did not do anything to slow down the forces of evil in their pursuit of a ban, and responded by offering them for sale to civilians this time. Glock is a great company (as exhibitedby both their sponsorship and customer support policies) , and this kind of action could make it even greater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Boudrie Posted May 25, 2004 Author Share Posted May 25, 2004 I am gonna buy mags for guns I don't even own yet. I did that last time around Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 New York shooters are allowed to possess pre 1994 hi caps as grandfathered. When the federal ban sunsets, the NYS awb will not. This means that 2004 hi caps mags will not be legal in NYS. How one will know the difference between them remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted May 25, 2004 Share Posted May 25, 2004 L10 as a single stack division is a tired argument. If we as a sport are going to create an "affirmative action" division for single stack pistols...we ought to scrap the division altogether. 10 round only divisions were designed for shooters in locations that could only purchase and/or own 10 round magazines due to State and Federal law. To assume that once ( and IF) the Federal Ban has sunsetted that we can go back to "business as usual" and neglect the conditions that are imposed on 4 of the larger USPSA membership States isn't just shortsighted but dare I say ignorant. California, Mass, N.J. and N.Y. certainly won't reap the benefits of a Federal AWB sunset. Yes, Division modifications wouldn't effect us is we played ONLY within the borders of our own State. What about those whom travel to Area Championships and/or the Nationals ? Should they borrow mags? Stash mags in out of State locations? Or should we risk becoming felons because those whom wish to voice the "too bad you live where you live" opinion couldn't care less about those effected and only care about themselves? Springfield and Kimber already support USPSA as sponsors. Colt barely has enough money to keep the doors open. The vast majority of Gunsmiths that give to USPSA build more wide bodies than single stacks. The way the division is designed now, you can use whatever you wish...1911, STI/SV/Para, Glock as long as you load 10 rounds. The shooter should be able to decide what is the best "tool" for the job, not have that decision made for them by someone pushing ( and pushing...and pushing...and pushing...) an agenda that has been rejected time after time after time..... The Single Stack only affirmative action program is alive and well...at the 1911 Society. Leave USPSA's L10 Division alone for the benefit of those that ENJOY it and don't wish to modify it in a way that RESTRICTS not only the equipment used but the degree of participation for those in 10 round only States. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Well, as has been said. Someone will produce hi-caps if the ban sets, and they will probably be a hell of a lot cheaper than factory mags now. I would guess once the manufactures see that they will jump on board if they didn't from the get go. As for L-10 Division, I would love to see it go single-stack. I'm not going to argue with you again Chucky, I respect your opinion and would probably feel the same way if my state restricted mags. But in other parts of the country, for sure in the southeast, most everybody in L-10 shoots a single stack. If they have a wide-body, they shoot limited. And obviously the guys who are gunning for a trophy or something have a big advantage shooting a full house S_I in L-10. If L-10 were a SS division I'd bet our participation would greatly increase. I know I'd shoot it more often.........But like you said, this has been beaten to death. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Part of the appeal of Production (and L10) is the ten round limit --- it forces you to approach the stages differently. I'd argue that the divisions are fine as they are --- there's no need to monkey with Production; and while I've heard all the widebody vs. single stack L10 arguments before, I'd say leave that division alone as well. And for the record --- I shoot a singlestack in L10 1-2 months a year, usually after the major match season is over, when I just want a change from the plastic fantastic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 [evil administrator mode on] We don't need to have another debate on the "L10 as a single-stack division" theme. If anybody wants to beat that horse some more...then, please, go dig up one of the many old threads that we already have on that subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 What I wonder is will / can a third party make mags that will fit in a SV frame? I know that there has been a shortage of tubes lately. Are there any legal issues ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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