Magazines in Safe Area?

[remoandiris]

You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

So you're saying a BOD for the LOCAL range needs USPSA BOD approval to make a LOCAL rule counter to a USPSA rule? I think not. USPSA matches are at the pleasure of the LOCAL club, not the other way around.

[sperman]

3.3 Applicability of Rules:

USPSA matches are governed by the rules applicable to the discipline. Host organizations may not enforce local rules except to comply with legislation or legal precedent in the applicable jurisdiction. Any voluntarily adopted rules that are not in compliance with these rules must not be applied to USPSA matches without the express consent of the President of USPSA.

[Sarge]

You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

So you're saying a BOD for the LOCAL range needs USPSA BOD approval to make a LOCAL rule counter to a USPSA rule? I think not. Think again. USPSA matches are at the pleasure of the LOCAL club, not the other way around. While this is true a local club still can not impose local rules without approval of USPSA.

I am on a BOD for a local club and I for one like the fact that we can not impose our individual rules onto shooters who come to our matches.

[Nik Habicht]

You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

So you're saying a BOD for the LOCAL range needs USPSA BOD approval to make a LOCAL rule counter to a USPSA rule? I think not. USPSA matches are at the pleasure of the LOCAL club, not the other way around.

And part of what the local club agrees to is to either use USPSA rules to govern the matches, or to apply for an exemption from the President of USPSA. Not really hard -- if it really is necessary.....

[Skydiver]

Consider some other funny "local rules":

- DQ for pointing muzzle over the berm (even during a reload, or unload and show clear, or clearing a jam)

- DQ for driving down steel

- DQ for hitting the concrete walls even if the shot hits a target. (For skeptics, see second sentence of 10.4.1.)

On the other hand, there is a particularly fun "local rule": getting to shoot in a 270 degree bay.

[remoandiris]

You can tout the USPSA rulebook all you want. If a local range BOD wants to make a rule, and it is voted in by the BOD that runs that local range, the USPSA match can either follow it or find another range.

That is just the way it is. You could have a BOD in 2005 that accepted USPSA rules and get new people that vote new rules. There won't be a thing USPSA can do about it.

Argue all you want, but that is reality. Sedro Wooley doesn't run the BOD at local ranges. I don't like it, I don't agree with it, but a USPSA member who shows up at a local club board meeting and preaches 3.3 can find themselves on the outside looking for a new range.

[remoandiris]

You do need approval from HQ for a Local Rule, but I can't see it being withheld if the alternate is losing a range.

So you're saying a BOD for the LOCAL range needs USPSA BOD approval to make a LOCAL rule counter to a USPSA rule? I think not. Think again. USPSA matches are at the pleasure of the LOCAL club, not the other way around. While this is true a local club still can not impose local rules without approval of USPSA.

I am on a BOD for a local club and I for one like the fact that we can not impose our individual rules onto shooters who come to our matches.

I WAS on the BOD for my local club and they will enforce any rule they get enough votes for...regardless of what the USPSA, IDPA, SAS or any other rulebook says. The action shooters can hope they don't get enough votes.

BTW, what percentage of shooters at your matches are club members? At my club, it is maybe 30%.

Edited October 30, 2011 by remoandiris

[Sarge]

I don't know if we make 30% or not. I doubt it. There are 4 local matches pretty near each other around here. We can't all be members of all the clubs.

If my club wanted to impose a local rule then it would be up to us/me to work with USPSA to either come to an agreement or part ways. I doubt we would part ways since our matches generate practically all of the revenue from the shooting disciplines.

I'm sure a less intrusive rule could be lived with but we would still need permission from USPSA to impose it during matches. If it were a deal breaker rule like the one discussed around here last year that did not allow "double taps" or even running while handling a gun then we would take our match to one of the other three great clubs in the area and give up a great revenue stream.

Remember, this discussion is about what the rulebook says. Not about our personal feelings as club/board members. A good match director and pistol VP will know up front what the requirements are to host a sanctioned match. Once the deal is brokered I don't think the club should go back and try to change things.

[remoandiris]

Once the deal is brokered I don't think the club should go back and try to change things.

Agreements can change over time, especially if there is a compelling reason. Unfortunately many reasons are only compelling in fantasy..."what if" this or "what if" that. Unlike your area, my area has nowhere else to shoot that is less than an hr away. A few yrs ago a USPSA club 90 minutes south of my current club shutdown operations because the local BOD changed the range rules. USPSA held no sway at that range with that BOD. The "range nazis" won.

[aztecdriver]

Once the deal is brokered I don't think the club should go back and try to change things.

Agreements can change over time, especially if there is a compelling reason. Unfortunately many reasons are only compelling in fantasy..."what if" this or "what if" that. Unlike your area, my area has nowhere else to shoot that is less than an hr away. A few yrs ago a USPSA club 90 minutes south of my current club shutdown operations because the local BOD changed the range rules. USPSA held no sway at that range with that BOD. The "range nazis" won.

And they will continue to win, and honestly it's their club and they can win if they so choose - until other members fix it.

USPSA rules ARE THE RULES. If you host a match with the banner flying above the club, it should be those rules and no others. I've been known to travel well over 900 miles by car and I take my gear with me on the off chance I can shoot a match. If you try one of these local only rules, I will not be back, I will make an issue of it, I'll publish where not to go and have conversations with the section coordinator and area director. I'd rather USPSA pull their affiliation and force the club to stop calling it USPSA than to live with their bastardization of the sport and it's rulebook.

Edited October 30, 2011 by aztecdriver

[Sarge]

Once the deal is brokered I don't think the club should go back and try to change things.

Agreements can change over time, especially if there is a compelling reason. Unfortunately many reasons are only compelling in fantasy..."what if" this or "what if" that. Unlike your area, my area has nowhere else to shoot that is less than an hr away. A few yrs ago a USPSA club 90 minutes south of my current club shutdown operations because the local BOD changed the range rules. USPSA held no sway at that range with that BOD. The "range nazis" won.

And this is the best reason in the world to keep pistol shooters involved in the BOD.

[remoandiris]

And this is the best reason in the world to keep pistol shooters involved in the BOD.

Unfortunately most shooters don't seem to care. As long as their shooting discipline isn't negatively impacted, they don't care.

[Jim Norman]

There are two reasons for local rules. Things that happened and things that the BOD think might happen.

Be active in your clubs! Get several members on the Board. Explain what we do, show what we do, get other members involved. Make sure that your matches are a positive cash flow to your club! Yes Money Talks.

Make sure that your shooters are not A$$4073$. In plain English be a good neighbor to the rest of your club. Clean up, be a part of other cub functions as much as you can.

[West Texas Granny]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

Edited November 3, 2011 by West Texas Granny

[Scott R]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

Under USPSA rules you reload your mags anywhere exept the "Safe Area".

Or maybe I don't fully understand, what prompted this question?

[Corey]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

You can reload your mags anywhere on the range EXCEPT for the safe areas. I load them up at my car in the morning, then reload then back up after every stage.

[spanky]

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Plural. As in more than one.

(I'm bored BTW )

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it.

[spanky]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

You can't be serious.

[ac4wordplay]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

Wow. So, uhhh... where do you load your mags?

[Sarge]

So where do you you reload your mags or do you carry 300 rounds on your belt.

My very first match I had to break down and ask, "is it OK to load mags here?". Since the rules tell us where we CAN NOT handle ammo it is up to us to figure out where we can when we are new. I was not totally up to speed on the common philosophy of, "if the rules don't forbid it then it is allowed".

Generally as soon as you shoot go to your range bag and reload your mags. Most places have benches or some type of tables near each stage for doing this. Just make double damn sure a "safe Area" sign has not been posted on one of the tables!

[Singlestack]

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Plural. As in more than one.

(I'm bored BTW )

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it.

I agree. I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around.

[Skydiver]

About 4 years ago, I saw the second weirdest thing at my first area match working as a newly minted RO: Husband was standing in front of safety table practicing his draws and dry firing. Wife was sitting on the grass about 3-4 feet away from the table calmly loading her magazines. Since the range failed to clearly mark the boundaries of the safety area (2.4), I just politely suggested that it may be better to move further away from the table just in case somebody considered her to be handling ammunition in the safety "area".

[Weirdest was later in the day: I see a couple of spectators handling a loaded gun in the parking lot. A few feet away from them was a sign indicating that it is a cold range in big bold letters. I had a talk with them as well.]

[ima45dv8]

Just make double damn sure a "safe Area" sign has not been posted on one of the tables!

Amen. Twice at the Nationals I walked over to bag in a nearby Safe Area and found someone (two different ones) shucking ammo out of magazines into ammo boxes. Both times I gently asked, "WTF ARE YOU DOING???"

Each one snapped their head up and swiveled around until they noticed the sign.

If you see a table...look for the sign.

[spanky]

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Plural. As in more than one.

(I'm bored BTW )

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it.

I agree. I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around.

To me "under any circumstances" simply means "at all." I'm basing some of my opinion on the "2 step" thing that has been talked about as being the "rule." I know it's not published in any capacity other than an opinion that I seem to remember reading but you can handle ammo or mags as long as they are IN something (other than a magazine, of course ). You can bag your gun at the safe area then peel your belt off with loaded mags on it. IMO this is no different than having one of those magazine sleeves with loaded mags in them or a box of ammo

[Singlestack]

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps

and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and

live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances

(see Rule 10.5.12).

Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box.

10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training

rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1.

The word handling does not preclude competitors from entering a

Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on

their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor

does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed

loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the

Safety Area.

Plural. As in more than one.

(I'm bored BTW )

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it.

I agree. I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around.

To me "under any circumstances" simply means "at all." I'm basing some of my opinion on the "2 step" thing that has been talked about as being the "rule." I know it's not published in any capacity other than an opinion that I seem to remember reading but you can handle ammo or mags as long as they are IN something (other than a magazine, of course ). You can bag your gun at the safe area then peel your belt off with loaded mags on it. IMO this is no different than having one of those magazine sleeves with loaded mags in them or a box of ammo

Me too.