Expanding Extractor Grooves

[kevin c]

I used to chuck my 40 brass after five loadings, but, being cheap and emboldened by the declarations of luminaries on this forum, I've run batches of cases out to about 8 to 10 loadings now, mostly practice loads. I'm pretty obsessive about batching brass both by number of loadings and by brand, and now I find, because of that, that Winchester brass expands more than RP brass.

This is not just a matter of looser primer pockets, which I read about here first, but (I think) widening of the head itself. I am getting 3 to 5% of cases where the extracter groove diameter is widened. I wouldn't have noticed this except that these cases actually won't fit into the shell plate on my SDB. It's not gunk in the shell plate or on the case - the groove on the no go cases is actually a few thousandths bigger on my calipers than the cases that do go.

This hasn't happened with RP brass. It's my own brass for sure, not shot in another overbored chamber, because I only shoot my own brass and it is all marked. It's not a matter of guppy bellied Glock brass, because I have as much if not more of that with my RP brass as the Win, and none of the RP stuff jams in the shell plate like this stuff does.

All my brass starts as once fired commercial, goes through a max of two match loadings at a typical 180 gr vv320 170 PF load, then goes to a 165 PF practice load using cast 180s over Universal Clays. One other difference is that the RP is nickel plated, whereas the Win is regular brass.

Anybody else seen this, with Win or other brass?

Edited for updated findings 2/06. See posts below.

Kevin C.

Edited February 17, 2006 by kevin c

[DougCarden]

Sounds like my .45 brass. some of which are expanded so much that I have a batch that I still reload just for revolver, will fit into moon clips still. I will still use them until they split. DougC

[kevin c]

Is it Winchester?

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Kevin, With the price of .40 brass as cheap as it is....Why bother loading it that many times and take the risk of a catastrophic casehead failure? Since the Max SAAMI spec'ed pressure for .40 is more then twice that of .45acp, I wouldn't draw any comparisons between .40sw and .45acp in case life. Hell, at approximately $20.00/1000 for once fired sorted .40 brass, I let it lie and don't even pick it up at matches. I've seen too many friends pick brass out of their faces from loading .40 cases one too many times to want to push my luck.

[ErikW]

Yes it's quite common. It has even occurred with once-fired brass. I trash them or mark them so I don't pick them up for reloading. Winchester brass does seem to be overly represented.

[EricW]

What Larry said. I got my 40 brass for under $16/K delivered from paraman.

[kevin c]

Fair 'nough. Off to the recycling bin it goes.

[kevin c]

Well, I have been picking up a fair amount of once fired Winchester from the new shooters at our range, shot through factory guns. Most of this stuff is the WallyWorld ValuePak stuff, which is 165 grain, and reportedly steps out lively. Some of the brass is my own purchase, though - 180 gr white box winchester (USA brand, for the new folks).

The expanding web/head/extractor groove problem is worse than ever. This is in once fired factory, mind you. The bad stuff is up over 10%, and is giving me fits trying to reload it. Factory supported bbl or not, Glock'ed or not, the expansion in the extractor groove is showing up regularly and seems to be assymetric. What ends up happening is that I only catch some of the cases as they refuse to fit into the shellplate in the resizing station. The others fit in initially, but then bind the shellplate against the locator pins or the kick out bail, jamming the machine.

I have a SDB. The problem might be related to the geometries unique to the four station shellplate, but until/if ever I get a 650, I'm swearing off Winchester .40 brass.

Edited 2/06 for discovery that the problem is shellplate and Winchester brass specific. See posts below.

Kevin C.

Edited February 17, 2006 by kevin c

[kimel]

I have found the same thing on my SDB. I bought some new Winchester unfired, empty brass just to check it. It was loose too...although not as loose as the several times fired brass.

Speer is even worse. Federal seems "okay".

I keep meaning to call Dillon and ask about this but never seem to remember to do it. I am starting to wonder if the shell plate isn't out of spec now. I have run about 30K rounds though the SDB shellplate so it wouldn't surprise me if it was loose due to wear. I did NOT have these problems when the press was new and I was shooting multiple times fired Winchester brass then too.

I do not have the same problem on the 550B.

[ErikW]

Same thing happens on my 650: either a case won't feed into the shellplate at the first station, or it won't eject from the last station.

Now you could mark your shellplate to see if this happens at the same location, but I think we know what's really going on here.

On the 650 there are a couple different shellplates one can use to load .40. Perhaps you can see whether that is also true with the SDB and choose the one with the larger dimensions. (That would probably require Dillon-tech-level knowledge.)

[kevin c]

Same thing happens on my 650: either a case won't feed into the shellplate at the first station, or it won't eject from the last station.

Now you could mark your shellplate to see if this happens at the same location, but I think we know what's really going on here.

On the 650 there are a couple different shellplates one can use to load .40. Perhaps you can see whether that is also true with the SDB and choose the one with the larger dimensions. (That would probably require Dillon-tech-level knowledge.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I actually do have two SDB shellplates for 40/10mm, and it happens with both.

I did check to see if it is location specific, since the plates are stamped on the upper surface with caliber markings - it happens randomly.

Kimel, my two shellplates have about 100,000 cases through the two of them, and work fine with other brands of once fired brass.

I really do think that this is a brand specific brass problem. It does seem worse now than before, and I don't know if that represents a production process change by the manufacturer.

It's a shame - I'm a real brass rat and it just kills me to leave it lying there. I really shouldn't complain, though. The local cops have been out a lot recently and I have scrounged plenty of my favored RP nickel .40.

Edited for new findings - problem is shellplate specific afterall. See below.

Kevin C.

Edited February 17, 2006 by kevin c

[kimel]

I just save my old brass up. I have a friend at a foundry and when I have enough I will just have him cast me a brass cannon or something.

I think I am seeing the opposite of what you are seeing. My plate is actually too loose with some brass. Oh well.

Later,

Kevin

[Harmon]

i have two 40 caliber shell plates, one is really tite with any 40 brass, one seems about right.

oddly enough, i can use a 9mm shell plate with 40 brass as long as there are no winchesters in the batch..

its a tite fit with some brass, but gives a real positive feeling when you seat a primer.

you dont have a 9mm shellplate by mistake do you??

[kevin c]

Not unless one of them was mismarked. But the proof would be to measure the shellholder openings, and that I haven't done.

Edited to update my findings below, more consistent w/ your findings.

kevin c

Edited February 17, 2006 by kevin c

[kevin c]

Update:

I still have the same problem, but with the last batch of Winchester I got, I got out what I think is the older 40/10mm shellplate I had and tried that. The cases that were no goes in the shellplate I have in my SDB now fit the old plate no problem. Prior lots of Win brass wouldn't work in either.

Seems like there is some tolerance variation in both the brass and the shellplates, which I got from Dillon a few years apart. What I think is the newer plate is tighter and/or this last batch of Winchester 40 brass has a lower upper end tolerance for the extractor groove diameter than the older brass, or is a bit harder case head area so it doesn't expand as much. It still only happens with Win brass though.

So I (and others) still have a problems with the Win brass fitting into the shellplate, but your own results definitely may vary, and that may depend on the particular shellplate in your press.

Kevin C.

[HSMITH]

I run a couple 550's, use a 9mm shell plate for 40 and have not had this problem at all. Sounds like SDB and 650 guys have noticed it though.

A couple years ago I was playing with hot loads, mic'ed cases every which way to Sunday. The only expansion I saw with Winchester cases was with the first firing, and with extremely high pressures. Gun used was a G22 with a factory barrel.

[Kyreb]

I have been noticing this situation with my 550. I will pay closer attention to see if its specific to any one brand of brass.

[Kyreb]

Confirmed. Every round giving me this problem is from Winchester.

[kevin c]

Well, for me, I will try to avoid Win brass, if only for the sake of my peace of mind while reloading.

It is worth mentioning, though, that all the loaded cases still chamber and extract fine. It's just the loading process jamming up that exasperates me.

Kevin C.