Practical IDPA

[sv45]

How are your stages designed at you club? I just shot out monthly match and it was poor. IDPA is to be REAL life, so they say. Four out of five stages were weak or strong hand shooting. The fifth stage was shot from retention. Now, In real life I sure as heck not going to shot week handed on the move engaging targets at 30 feet! (that was stage one) Stage two started out with gun and mags in case unloaded. At start load gun and with spare mag in weak hand, engage targets strong hand. Now, In real life I sure hope I am not stupid to carry an unloaded firearm and then hold a spare mag in my weak hand while engaging three targets at point blank range!! Is this real?? I understand the priciples of training, but the people that design these idiot stages are the ones in protest of the gamers.

Sorry to rant, I just needed to vent, And yes you could call me a gamer.

Ej45

[JD45]

I know what you mean. I've become kind of used to it. Setting up great stages that are practical and fun seems to be hard to do(I know that I sure couldn't come up with 5 stages that covered both). I don't have any good answers. Maybe if clubs could rig more targets that charged forward. That would liven things up.

[Johnny Van Etta]

sv45,

First of all no weak handed stage, shot within the rules, should require you to shoot at greater than 7 yards. ( page 18 of the rule book).

Secondly, there is NO provision in IDPA to allow any shooter to engage targets with a spare magazine held in their hand. The magazine must be stowed in the mag carrier, tucked in the belt, stuck in a pocket near the waistline.

Sorry you had a bad experience, the stages were just implemented wrong. Don't let poor course design cause you to walk away from the sport. Read the rules and challenge the MD when this stuff comes up again.

Johnny Van Etta

[Sterling White]

I think IDPA matches should use paint guns controlled by someone in a booth behind the firing line with view screen using an automated shooting control device. As the shooter peeked or poked a head or body part around a corner or thru an opening the controller would throtle up a barrage of paint balls.....this would give you a more realistic "tacticle" simulation!

Then again...well I'll leave it at that!

[ron durham]

Mr. SV45:

As an Area Coordinator, I traveled to quite a few Clubs and just kind of mingled with the crowd and one thing I have noticed is generally the people who complain about just about everything are the ones who never get involved with helping set up stages and are usually the first ones to their cars when the match is over. Now, I am not saying that is the case with you; however, why don't you consider studying the rule book, study the principals and purpose of IDPA and volunteer to be a match director or a match helper and show them the right way to go. Kind of steer them in the proper direction. I have done it many times.

Ron Durham

[Mayonaise]

If total realism is what you want every stage would have 3 targets or less and round counts wouldn't exceed the capacity of one magazine. IDPA is a game where stages should closely mimic real life scenarios and standard marksmanship skills. In order to make it interesting and fun most MD's have to go beyond what most civilians are likely to encounter. That's why you see recreated LE shootouts etc...

[Gun Geek]

yeah - we've had that problem as well - that FUN thing (there's another thread I started about that).

Many shooters (especially new ones) don't want too much realism. They're still into seeing their hits on a target, and so they enjoy reactives and a "shooting gallery" approach to things.

We mix stuff up so we can touch satisfy as many tastes as possible.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

SV45, sounds like what you really want is an in depth class on Combat or Defensive shooting. Try any of the multitude of 2-3 day classes if you want "realism". Competition is for FUN.

[rhino]

If IDPA were "realistic," the proper response on most scenarious would be to haul a** to your car and drive away like a bat outta heck.

It's a GAME. It's the individual shooter who determines by their own intent and actions how valuable it is as a tool for training, practice, or testing defensive skills.

[sfinney]

IDPA is a game .....

I agree.

First, this is not a knock on IDPA, I enjoy shooting it occasionally - but IMHO I think the main thing to remember is that despite the best efforts of some people in the "sport", is that IDPA is a game like any other shooting sport.... or why else would they keep score?

Sure, it has a more "tactical" mindset as to gear, etc.... but in a

REAL world gunfight, multiple attackers? RUN FAST the OTHER WAY!

[Jim Norman]

As long as you are keeping score on a sheet of paper and not in bodybags and you all get together later to scarf down greasy pizza: IT IS A GAME.

IDPA or USPSA/IPSC or 3-Gun "Tactical" No one doesn't go home. It is a game! Make it as real as you like inteh scenarios youwant to create, but like Bruce Lee said, Boards don't hit back, Paper and steel don't shoot back.

Rhino, I like the idea of a paintball gun shooting at youi if you expose yourself too long. (I know that sentence is gonna get me in trouble)

It is fun and I think that if you like it and it goes bang, have at it. Biggest proplem I see today that we all as shooters have is the factions infighting between themselves. Must give Hillary, Diane and Chuckie a thrill to listen to the Bullseye and shotgun people bash us and the other way around!

Jim

[gunther]

My friends tell me about the IDPA matches they shoot, ( complain mostly ) The only reason I haven't shot any yet is I don't want to instill any bad habits.

[kdmoore]

I'm a pretty loyal IDPA lover, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt

I approach everything with two thoughts in mind. "How can I shoot this for my best score" and "what could I learn from this?" So, my attitude (if I shot your match) would be... I practiced some weak handed shooting (if I ever HAD to), and learned the limitations of distance?

Even the dreaded (un)tac reloads, or reload with retention could one day pay off (during a lull in my gun fight. You know where I slay 2, duck behind cover and load up leisurely before ... you guessed it, 3 more bad guys appear). Any gun trick is worth putting in your bag of tricks. If you are in a gunfight and don't need to shoot weak handed, then don't.

Since we all shoot the same course, I have little problems with "screwball" courses. Might help that I never expect a course to be realistic (to me) so when they are it's a bonus.

Last week shot some pretty challenging stuff. Drop turner and swinger attached to a car door. Door in weak hand, door must be closed all the way before gun is drawn (avoid self sweep) and these first two had to be engaged while backing up, best 3 on drop target best 3 on swinger Then go to other side/ back of car for some 20 yd shots from low cover. Lots of misses on the DT target, LOTS. But the MD said up front that he was looking to let the skilled shooters put a little more distance between themselves and the crowd. Could that be what your MD had in mind?

Having said all this, I don't like matches that are set up along a single theme, (last month shot ~100 rounds, every one of them on the move) but it can happen.

But the best advice has already been given. If you haven't already offered, talk with the guy/group that sets up course design and offer to help. Even if he/they decline your complaints will carry more weight.

[sv45]

Ron Durham, You should not be so quick to judge Mr. Area Coordinator!

I have been a match director at the club and have done alot of help building targets, tear downs, and stage designs. This is not my first day at the range, I have been shooting competitive in IPSC, IDPA, Steel matches, and Skeet since 1991. Sorry about the rule book, I gave the two I owned to new shooters to invite them to start shooting IDPA. The match director had it detailed to every degree, To quote him....If you don't shoot it like I wrote it, It is a FTDR. My point in the first post was the quanity of weak and strong hand shooting. I shoot for FUN! And yes I did help tear down the match that day and did not bitch about the stage designs, I saved it for this forum so I would not hurt the MD feelings.

Thanks Ej45

[ron durham]

Mr. SV45:

Wow....I hope my post wasn't as snotty as yours. How was I to know that you were an experienced shooter? You didn't give any indication that you were. I didn't read anything in my post that indicated what you said I said. I thought I was giving some good information to a new shooter. I am not going to apologize for getting your dander up. I didn't say anything wrong.

Ron Durham

[Dan Burwell]

why don't you consider studying the rule book, study the principals and purpose of IDPA

[flame warning/on]

Ron,

I read and reread your post and can say I thought you were making assumptions (consider studying the rules, help tear down) that you as an area coordinator should not have been making. You of anybody should have been more open and interested in what the problem was and how to correct it not just put the blame on the competitor for not being part of the solution.

[flame warning/off]

Back to the topic:

Match directors really need to sit down and look at all the stages they have picked for a match and ask themselves a few questions:

1. Can all my shooters shoot these stages safely?

2. Will these stages challenge all of my shooters?

3. Am I testing most of the common shooting "skills"( cover, reloads, movement)?

4. Is there too much commonality among stages? (i.e. shooting weak hand on every stage)

Maybe others could add to this list and I'll send it on to HQ to try to get it into one of there tactical journals for all match directors to read.

[KentG]

I enjoy IDPA and I think that it does reinforce some basic stratagies for the real world. However Im not a tactical guru with years of gunshop comando experiance or classes at any of the big name schools, but I HAVE stayed at a Holiday Inn though

The biggest flag that its a game along with any of the other disciplines is using a timer. If it were for real, Id beat Joe to the truck and consider leaving his butt behind if they were fast zombies.

[rhino]

If it were for real, Id beat Joe to the truck and consider leaving his butt behind if they were fast zombies.

Which proves the old adage ... you don't have to be able to outrun the zombies (or bear, or whatever), you just have to be able to outrun your (former) buddy!

[Chuck D]

The most any competitor can hope for at a match (club level that is) is to get some quality "trigger time" and become proficient with the gun they are using for competition...concealed carry...home defense or whatever. Match Directors and COF designers SHOULD keep this simple fact in mind and leave the "gun magazine commando" stuff where it belongs...on the pages of "kill 'em all" magazine.

Design simple, skill testing/building stages that require the shooter to SOLVE problems and HONE skills so they can become better...more confident shooters. The most common problem in COF design is that the designer(s) either run out of ideas or become fixated on "non-realistic" theories and began to design and implement the illogical REGARDLESS of the shooting disclipine their involved it.

Entering my 18th year of competitive shooting I thought I would have experienced virtually everything in regards to illogical COF design but alas I was wrong again. Some of the most amazingly illogical COF design I've EVER seen has been at IDPA matches. In 90 percent of these situations...instead of engaging the threats...you'd draw your weapon and fire while running as fast as you could in the opposite direction !

This is NOT a slam against IDPA but it is a word of warning to those so impressed by the Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith types that they'll drive the local IDPA program into the ground by following the " one handed only...close one eye...hide behind the drum...hold spare mag between the thumb and forefinger routine. If that's what you WANT to do...go to Thunder Ranch.

Always keep in mind that the CONSUMER wants to pay their money and have FUN...not get their balls broke.

[ron durham]

Hi Daniel 97:

Your points are well taken; however, I thought and wrongfully so SV was a new shooter. Usually the guys who complain about stage design that are not real world life situations in my experience have been new shooters. Wrong on my part. As an Area Coordinator, I spend about 80 % of my time listening to people complain. I guess maybe I am sensitive to it and I don't scream at them or get in their face, I try to finess them into getting involved in their Club, reading the rulebook, learning principals and purpose. My post to SV was two points.....the first part hopefully was to get some folks out there that don't get involved and leave after the last shot is fired and as I said to SV.....I was not referring to him......did you both miss that? You said I should examine the problem. How could I do that, I don't know the Match Director, I don't know the Club involved. My point was simply for folks out there who is sitting in the middle to get involved in your Club especially if you don't like the way things are going. Every Club has a turnover of shooters and if we don't keep encouraging new shooters, what do you think we are going to have? Exactly what we have now. Some Clubs are poorly run. I have some in my Region that are the same way. It is frustrating; however, it is a fact.

Well 97, that is about all I have to say.

Ron Durham

[Mark Perez]

How are your stages designed at you club?  I just shot out monthly match and it was poor.  IDPA is to be REAL life, so they say.  Four out of five stages were weak or strong hand shooting.  The fifth stage was shot from retention. Now, In real life I sure as heck not going to shot week handed on the move engaging targets at 30 feet! (that was stage one)  Stage two started out with gun and mags in case unloaded.  At start load gun and with spare mag in weak hand, engage targets strong hand.  Now, In real life I sure hope I am not stupid to carry an unloaded firearm and then hold a spare mag in my weak hand while engaging three targets at point blank range!! Is this real??  I understand the priciples of training, but the people that design these idiot stages are the ones in protest of the gamers.

Sorry to rant, I just needed to vent, And yes you could call me a gamer.

Ej45

In my NSHO ,

1. How do you know what is going to happen "in real life"?

If you carry a gun on a regular basis , whether as part of your job or just a common CCW holder , there must be a reasonable expectation of having to put it to use. Otherwise , why carry at all ?

It would be fair to assume that injury may result in this course of action and that a person may have to return fire single handed. Just ask Ed Mireles.

This isn't dircted at anyone in particular ;

2. The tactic of "running away" is a solution to an unarmed problem. If you go armed into the world and abandon others that may need your assistance in time of need , may the cave you hide in be deep and dark.

3.There isn't a problem with IDPA , the problem rests with those that fail to follow the guidelines outlined in the lgb.

Courses of fire must either simulate a potential real life self-defense scenario or test shooting and gun handling skills that would be necessary in a real life self-defense scenario.  The maximum number of shots required for any string of fire is 18.  The majority of shots fired in a Defensive Pistol match will be under 15yds and many stages will start with your equipment concealed.  Precision close range shooting on the move and at moving targets is also to be encouraged.  Every effort will be made to keep all courses six (6) shot revolver neutral.  Emphasis will not be placed on physical ability, but rather on shooting and gun handling skills.

This basic criteria is as follows: 

1.  Develop the scenario--if you can't honestly say ‘that could happen,’ it probably won't make a good IDPA stage.

This isn't that hard to accomplish.

Until that day,

Mark

[Chuck D]

"The Tactic of running away is a solution to an unarmed problem".

What ?

So, if I read this correctly, the next time your outnumbered and quite possibly outgunned...you'll stand and fight HOPING you won't be shot or stabbed so full of holes that you'll look like Swiss cheese?

Herein lies the problem with theory and course design. While we'd ALL like to say (and/or think) that we stand out ground and fight the good fight while never abandoning someone whom needs help (a practice I certainly don't recommend) truth is...most people won't. The best way to stay alive is to avoid the conflict and seek safety (especially for civilians). Case in point, Massad Ayoob champions the idea of keeping a 10 or 20 dollar bill, wrapped around a book of matches is a shirt pocket in case you need to "toss it" at a gang of shady characters shadowing you (and your loved one) on the strip one Sat. evening while your out for an ice cream or movie. Those whom would "draw down" and let the lead fly can be guaranteed two outcomes...they get hurt as well or they vist the Grand Jury. As a law student...I cringe at how this practice would be viewed at the DA's office. You'd be indicted...

Avoidance of potentially deadly/violent situations is the first priority here. Course design under the guise of "practicality" is what I believe is being debated here. Some believe that either this isn't being done or it is being taken to the exteme by "commando" types.

While I wholeheartedly believe that the problem ISN'T with IDPA...it's also safe to assume that someone wouldn't or need not have to shoot virtually an entire COF with either the strong hand or weak hand...or start a stage with an empty gun in one hand and a full mag in the other. That's simply unnecessary.

As far as "running away" is concerned...law enforcement is duty bound to engage the threat...civilians are NOT. If I can get out of a situation without drawing my weapon and causing (or creating ) injury...I'd do it without question.

IPSC,IDPA etc... isn't training. Their "gun games". The day the cardboard targets shoot back...THEN it can be called training. Shooting IDPA can provide only one thing to the shooter, quality "hands on" experience using the gun they may choose to defend themselves with when it's their LAST option. Keep it as practical and realistic as possible without reaching for the obscure and excessive.

[rhino]

I can't help it ... have to say it ...

Unless they are in the military, "law enforcement" persons are civilians.

[shred]

I will note that in the Simmunitions excercises (in which the targets do shoot back) that I've been involved with (both LEO and ordinary citizen), the "Tactical Ass-Hauling" works surprisingly well, even in close quarters.

[Mark Perez]

"The Tactic of running away is a solution to an unarmed problem".

What ? 

So, if I read this correctly, the next time your outnumbered and quite possibly outgunned...you'll stand and fight HOPING you won't be shot or stabbed so full of holes that you'll look like Swiss cheese? 

You read it correctly but came to an incorrect assumption.

While we'd ALL like to say (and/or think) that we stand out ground and fight the good fight while never abandoning someone whom needs help (a practice I certainly don't recommend) truth is...most people won't. The best way to stay alive is to avoid the conflict and seek safety (especially for civilians).

As a citizen , I/we have the option to make a choice in the matter.Let your skill level be your guide.

Stand and fight or make exit - the choice is yours.

Those whom would "draw down" and let the lead fly can be guaranteed two outcomes...they get hurt as well or they vist the Grand Jury. As a law student...I cringe at how this practice would be viewed at the DA's office. You'd be indicted...

Those scenarios have already been considered in the choice to go armed.

That's why my attorney is a shooter and is familiar with the laws regarding CCW,use of force ,etc.

Avoidance of potentially deadly/violent situations is the first priority here. Course design under the guise of "practicality" is what I believe is being debated here. Some believe that either this isn't being done or it is being taken to the exteme by "commando" types.

Avoidance is a 2 way street. You can emplace all the common measures to avoid conflict and still have violence visit you inspite of those efforts.

As for the commando experince and the MD from the original post , I don't know what his background is - so I'll with hold comment.

While I wholeheartedly believe that the problem ISN'T with IDPA

See ? we can agree on common ground .

As far as "running away" is concerned...law enforcement is duty bound to engage the threat...civilians are NOT. If I can get out of a situation without drawing my weapon and causing (or creating ) injury...I'd do it without question.

If I can use my skills to prevent further harm to others... I'd do it without question.

This doesn't mean that I actively seek out such scenarios , only that I reserve that option.

IPSC,IDPA etc... isn't training. Their "gun games". The day the cardboard targets shoot back...THEN it can be called training. Shooting IDPA can provide only one thing to the shooter, quality "hands on" experience using the gun they may choose to defend themselves with when it's their LAST option. Keep it as practical and realistic as possible without reaching for the obscure and excessive.

The fact that IDPA/IPSC are recreational past times isn't lost on me.

Instead of complaining, most should just shoot the stage and get on with life .

Until that day,

mark