"A" Zone Mostly Covered

[lndshrk]

Being a relative newbie, have shot in some matches and encountered several A zones more than 50% hidden behind hard cover. This is especially difficult with vertical or diagonal no-shoot marking. Since my aim is good, but not perfect, should I be aiming at the A zone exclusively and living with the mikes, taking another shot when Comstock, or should I move my aim point into the C zone for a higher percentage of total hits?

[Bear1142]

lndshrk,

If I were just starting out, I would go for the center of what's available. Don't worry about getting greedy and stealing the "A" right now.

Erik

[Turtle]

lndshrk,

It's going to depend on a few things; One thing being, how difficult is the shot (i.e. how far is the target)? If you have partial target at 7 yards, I would shoot for the center of the available A zone. The same partial at 25 yards, I would probably shoot for closer to the center of the available brown or the perf of the A zone, just to play it safe. It's one of things you have to assess during the walkthrough I guess (where are my danger targets?, etc...), how risky do you want to play it and is it worth it?

It's also going to depend on if you're shooting major or minor. I find that shooting production has made me take a little more risk, because shooting C's (don't even think about shooting D's) is not a good thing. I'm still trying to get that into my head. Erik Lund's words echo in my head (sometimes), "...that would have been a smoking run in Limited, but..."

The goal is still the same no matter what, shoot good points quickly. It's just seeing what YOU need to see to acomplish that goal. Giving up a few tenths of a second here or there in order to see what you need to is always better than a miss/no-shoot.

Hope that made some sense.

Regards,

Todd

[Turtle]

Erik,

Rocket called while I was typing and you beat me to the punch.

Turtle

[schmitz]

Always go for the Double Alpha!!! Even if it's partial.

Saul Kirsch taught me this! Take aim! Take your time to hit it!

Henny.

[benos]

I have great respect for Saul, but I have to disagree with the "always shoot for A's regardless of skill level or target difficulty" approach. Depending on the combination of target difficulty and the individual's skill level, it's often wise to shoot for the center of the scoring target. The couple points lost far outweigh the scoring disaster caused by a miss, no-shoot, or no-shoot/miss.

With more experience, you'll wonder less about these types of decisions, as your skill begins to "decide" for you. If in doubt, shoot center of mass.

be

[Loves2Shoot]

Always go for the Double Alpha!!! Even if it's partial.

Saul Kirsch taught me this! Take aim! Take your time to hit it!

Henny.

Saul is one of THE best, but for the average even above average shooter getting a scoring hit will factor better 95% of the time. I've lost too many points trying to sqeeze A's and been 1/8" off. Generally when I miss a hardcover or no shoot target it is within 1" of scoring. Being a "A" whore has cost me more times than I care to think about, especially when I went from open to limited. With open guns you can really go for the A's much easier because the sights don't cover up the target.

I will try to aim for the center of the scoring area shading a hair towards the A zone. Like with upper A/B zone shots I'll aim a hair high, but I'll take B's I don't waste the time trying to get the perfect shot because it is just too slow generally.

Shoot production or minor is a totally different matter.

[lndshrk]

Thank you all for your comments. Since I am competing in Production, could you please explain how else you might pick a point of aim.

[Guest Larry Cazes]

Only been at this for a couple of years myself.....but if I can't be confident of making the A hit, I will do as Brian suggested and aim at the center of the exposed scoring portion of the target. This increases the chance of a "Scoring" hit instead of a miss into the cover.

[shred]

Shooting Production, I'd go for the best points with least risk (duh!)-- if you're right-handed and yank 'em left and down occasioally, aim a bit high right on the available A-zone, for example.

If you work out your HF, it can also give you a guide-- at a 10 HF, one C costs you 0.2 seconds. At a 5 HF, 0.4 sec. If you can guarantee a tight-squeeze A in less than that, do it. If not, a C would be acceptable. By all means, stay out of the D's.

[D.Hayden]

With Larry 100% - divide what shows, and aim for the center of that - I try (still working on it), to see only the shootable area, and ignore everything else. I think in the match on Sunday, I felt this the first time (on Bay 3)..

[Flexmoney]

Try to avoid taking shoots you can't make.

Two C-hits shooting minor gets you 6 of the 10 available points...and that can suck at times.

Hitting an Alpha and a Mike gets you 5 of the 10 points...minus 10 for the miss. For a net loss of 5 points.

Hitting an Alpha-Mike-NoShoot nets a loss of 15 points.

[spook]

I will try to aim for the center of the scoring area shading a hair towards the A zone

This is exactly what I do (an BTW also what Saul told ME )

I can't image Saul telling you to ALWAYS go for the Alpha, even at high risk targets with iron sights.

[A33435]

I agree with Spook, aiming for the center of the scoring area towards the A-zone is the general idea. Most classes with topics regarding partials/hardcover partials/NS i did with Saul he told this about the way to shoot it.

And this makes sence.

Henny, i think you are confusing the bulk of information Saul gives you.

Knowing what to do and knowing what to see starts with knowing what to do in which situation

Greetings

Adrie

[schmitz]

Guys,

From my archive and several classes.....

Mr. Saul Kirsch:

In: Advanced IPSC Shooting/Technical Pointers, November 2001: PAGE 4:

"Always remember: You are not aiming at the whole big brown target-you are aiming only at the A-zone! And some say-at the center of the A-zone."

A3, I'm hardly ever confused about things one told me in the past, my long-term memory is still OK.

I agree shooting Open is easier than shooting Production or Standard because there's more to see.

But why not try to apply Open-knowlegde to Standard or Production?

Tip by Mr. Saul Kirsch:

"If you keep doing what you've always done, You will keep getting what you've always got."

In the past on partial targets, I was always aiming at the C's with a potential risk shooting a D.

CU, Henny

[A33435]

Henny,

by quoting mr Saul :

"Always remember: You are not aiming at the whole big brown target-you are aiming only at the A-zone! And some say-at the center of the A-zone."

You just confirm that this is the way to deal with whole "open" targets

but the topic starter would like to know how to deal with covered target (NS or hardcover)

Just 2 weeks ago we (the dutch standard selection/national team + spook) spent a whole morning training on multiple partials/NS/hardcover supervised by Saul because this kinda targets is what we are gonna expect a lot during the Europeans.

Refering to :

"If you keep doing what you've always done, You will keep getting what you've always got."

It is very frustrating to keep loosing time making the perfect double A shots or keep finding at the end you have hits scoring both the target and N/S or that they vanished into the hardcover.

If i find some time (next weekend at your match) i will point out at several partials what the point of aim should be.

CU

Greetings Adrie

[Loves2Shoot]

But why not try to apply Open-knowlegde to Standard or Production?

Because in standard and production you have a greater error rate, and a miss or no shoot is a LOT worse than a D.

[benos]

Before you shoot a stage, it's helpful, not only on difficult targets but for each target, to visualize how you will "see" the target, before your sights get there. The affects of applying this hesitating, doubt removing visualization are tremendous. Once you've become fairly proficient with calling, this might be the next secret to quick transitions.

Start with it by picking a "hard target" out of a stage. Look at that target, and imagine - what is the first thing you will see when finding that target? How will you see it? (We can visually find things precisely or sloppily.) Look right to the center of where you want to hit it; notice how the rest of the target looks to you peripherally, while you are looking right at the middle. Then imagine how your sights will first look, peripherally, as they are coming into your field of vision, while you are still locked on to the target. Next, imagine how the sight picture will look (the target around the sights), as you are now looking right at the front sight. This works.

Your mind, having been clearly pre-programmed to find a precise spot, will do that, if it's not filled with uncertainty while it should be looking. Which is the reason for the emphasis on mastering calling.

be

[ORCA]

Oh yeah, that's gold!!!

[schmitz]

Am I wrong?

[schmitz]

[short_round]

In the past on partial targets, I was always aiming at the C's with a potential risk shooting a D.

I don't think this is wrong so much as it is not the best. You should aim and shoot to hit the exact spot on the target you want (highest scoring zone) rather than aiming and shooting to miss something you don't want to hit (hard-cover, no-shoot).

I was discussing a similar topic the other day with someone. While it is always good to have back-up plans, your primary plan is the one you should spend the most time one. You should plan to hit rather than miss.

[schmitz]

[Lurper]

My take on no shoots. Someone here taught me this years ago.

I also shoot for the center of the visible target. However, what I think is more important is that I don't see, think about or acknowledge the no shoot. That is the key. You don't want to tell yourself "don't hit the no-shoot" because you are focusing on the no-shoot. It does not exist. The target is the only thing that you mind should be focused on.

[JFD]

Way too often I would hit no-shoots when trying to be "safe". As said above, there was too much focus on the no-shoot and not enough on the target.

These days my visual awareness and shot calling is much better and unless I'm in an odd position I will shoot for the A zone on anything I've seen to date. I'm not the fastest person in terms of foot speed, so sometimes those solid points save me and allow me to stay somewhat competitive.