AikiDale Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 If, while engaging a target with one hand only, a shooter supports himself with his free forearm but does not use his hand is he in violation? I know this sounds like the range lawyer from hell but while watching professional bullriding last weekend the same point came up. A rider was deemed to have not faulted when his forearm but not his hand, as specified in the rules, touched the bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots. Dale, in my mind, the key words are "increase stability" and I would not allow it (or if someone did it, I would have to give them one Procedural per shot). Interesting question though.... See ya this weekend.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 We had this situation happen at the Florida State Champs this year. They had a weak hand only baricade stage and some folks placed their strong arms against the barricades. they were assessed 1 P per shot fired in that condition. The situation was escalated to the RM which upheld the penalties. Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 The important thing to remember is this rule only applies to a specified strong hand or weak hand string. I recently saw this rule attempted to be applied to a freestyle course, which was not proper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 18, 2004 Share Posted May 18, 2004 No need for Darth here. Messrs. Hanna and Stevens have it sewn up nicely ........ Well done chaps. Carry on! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Vince, can you add me to the "Well done chaps"? Why? Because I have the same opinion as the two masters. Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted May 20, 2004 Author Share Posted May 20, 2004 And if one were to use one's entire torso and legs against the barricade "to increase stability" but not the other hand/arm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 And if one were to use one's entire torso and legs against the barricade "to increase stability" but not the other hand/arm? Not a problem. SHO or WHO stages are intended to simulate the incapacity of an arm, so using your torso or legs for support is acceptable. BTW your question made me think of the scene in Monty Python's "Life Of Brian", where the poor sucker gets his arms and legs lobbed off by the evil Black Knight, but he still wants to go on fighting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 In Thailand, we have a guns game that isn’t require much of experience to joy the game (Sure, to win is require much of practice time and money). We call it “ Villager-Gun Games”. All shooter just go to range with any kind of handgun, buy lot of ticket, stand still behind the desk and shoot at the bull-eye target, 10 rounds per target, and you may shoot as many target as you want(depend on your money). Late afternoon, the scorer will choose 3 or 5 highest score of each competitor and make a comparison. The winner get a trophy,and tons of happiness (including his thinner and lighter pocket). It ‘s seemed like one rule of the IPSC is borrowed and used here. The rule is 10.2.8.3 using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots. You know, what is the big advantage of a big guy to a small guy (like me, 58 Kg, 169 centimeters). The big guy may cheat and increase his stability by put his big belly on the desk without any noticeable from match officers. Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Mai, Using your body and legs for support in a SHO/WHO stage is not cheating under IPSC rules. And if "big belly" guys have an advantage on barricades, then "little belly" guys have an advantage with low ports and with running on long courses. IPSC rules don't (and can't) deal with the shape or weight of competitor's bodies. If they did, I'd be World Champion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 I found out that I am not a good teller at all. Yes I agree that the IPSC is a fare game, everyone has own advantage in his way. Well, I should say almost everyone for the sake of truth. The shooting contest that I mention above is a stand still game, and all shooters have to stand on their feet. No other part of the body is allowed to touch anything. All of officer stays behind the shooter (not infront of the shooter for whatever reason) and probably one officer per 10 shooters at the same time. So, if the shooter lean on something, it easy to recognize, but if somebody lay his big belly against the desk, nobody easily see that. Whenever I saw this action, I always smiling to myself. Don’t you think it is pretty lovely posture? Anyway Vince, which corner you are, big lovely belly or skinny bone walker. I think you are in the opposite corner from me. Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 BTW your question made me think of the scene in Monty Python's "Life Of Brian", where the poor sucker gets his arms and legs lobbed off by the evil Black Knight, but he still wants to go on fighting [thread drift] Ummmm, wasn't that Monty Python and the Holy Grail? [/thread drift] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 You know, what is the big advantage of a big guy to a small guy (like me, 58 Kg, 169 centimeters). The big guy may cheat and increase his stability by put his big belly on the desk without any noticeable from match officers. Oh, man! Now I know how I'm going to shoot stages behind tables! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 Just out of curiosity, when time wise did they stop allowing you to support yourself with your off hand. We used to shoot the Ambi Defense and hold the top of the barricade with the off hand and it was ok, but that was a loooooong time ago.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 BDH, Yeah, maybe it was The Holy Grail. In any case, a very funny scene. TL, Rule 11.11(i) of the 13th Edition (1996) said: "Faults by using the 'incapacitated arm' he shall receive a procedural error for each shot so fired". It probably goes back further than that, but I can't find my older rulebooks at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 20, 2004 Share Posted May 20, 2004 I've pulled out a copy of RB11 1993 and the rule as posted above by Vince is the same. RB7 from 1986 states: "When the course of fire stipulates strong or weak arm incapacity and the competitor faults this condition he shall receive a procedural error for each shot so fired." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I have enough trouble learning the 15th ed rules! Are you telling me I need a research library as well..... Neil, thanks for digging and clarification.... I owe ya a pint (or many).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 21, 2004 Share Posted May 21, 2004 I owe ya a pint (or many).... Brian (or is it Brain now), Many sounds good! Many is my favourite number! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Brian, Neil is a big lad and he has hollow legs. You have been warned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue edge Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 So AikiDale, I know the match, Did your call hold up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 I'm confused here guys. The rule cited here ,10.2.8.3 , clearly says "other hand". Not "incapacitated arm" not appendage or anything else to suggest that it applies to any other part of the human body than from the wrist out to the fingers. If I lean around a barricade, with my elbow or shoulder touching the barricade, I am not using my "other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase stability while firing shots". While my knowledge of IPSC/USPSA rules may not be that extensive, I think I have a pretty good handle on the English language and human anatomy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Warpspeed, How you say "Oooops" in America? Oh dear. Thanks for spotting it and drawing it to my attention. You're absolutely correct, and the oversight is the fault of Martyn Spence (he's Secretary of the Rules Coordinating Committee who we blame for all foo-foos, and this one's a dandy). Anyway, jokes aside, there's no question about it - Rules 10.2.8.1, 10.2.8.2 & 10.2.8.3 should all say "the other hand or arm". so I'll submit a proposed correction to the Rules Committee this week. Neil, if you're out there, what say you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Beverley Posted May 22, 2004 Share Posted May 22, 2004 Anyway, jokes aside, there's no question about it - Rules 10.2.8.1, 10.2.8.2 & 10.2.8.3 should all say "the other hand or arm". so I'll submit a proposed correction to the Rules Committee this week.Neil, if you're out there, what say you? This is now being discussed by the committee via email in a hope to come to a resolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 23, 2004 Share Posted May 23, 2004 Neil & Vince, Thanks. I'm sure with such a large undertaking as re-writing the rules some things are bound to slip through. Glad I could be of help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 26, 2004 Share Posted May 26, 2004 Just a follow-up. The Rules Committee is leaning towards an interim interpretation to define "the other hand" to include "the arm from the shoulder to the hand". Of course the show's not over 'till the fat lady sings, but this seems to cover the intent of the rule. More to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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