Tman33_99 Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Today, I was ROing an Open shooter. After the LAMR he fiddled with his dot, loaded up, and made ready. I continued with AYR and then Standby <Edited> the Beep sounded <Edited>. He drew, and then started messing with his dot again, losing probably 10-15 seconds getting the dot on before starting shooting. Afterwards, several other shooters came to me and said that I should have stopped him and let him restart since it was obvious his dot wasn't working. I asked under what rule I was supposed to do this? None of them had a rule, but said it would be the nice thing to do. I thought it would have been nice for the RO to stop me and let me restart when upon drawing, my mag fell out, but I had to fumble with an unplanned reload right after the beep. I guess my question is this. Would anyone have stopped the shooter whose dot wasn't working? If so, would you have stopped me, when my mag fell out? Travis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Club match, yes for the dot no for dropping a mag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Travis, See the following rule in the IPSC January 2004 Edition Rulebook: 10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance after the "Standby" command and prior to issuance of the start signal, will incur 1 procedural penalty. If the Range Officer can stop the competitor in time, a warning will be issued for the first offense and the competitor will be restarted. If I were the RO, I would most likely give the competitor a stern warning, order him to ULASC, then ask him to stand down and do whatever needs to be done with his gun in the Safety Area, and then I'd process the next competitor. Note that the USPSA version of the same rule will probably not include the warning, so the procedural penalty would be mandatory in the USA (to be confirmed). Of course the correct procedure (and common courtesy) would be for the competitor to declare "Not Ready" when asked "Are You Ready", at which time he should ask the RO to stand him down, rather than expect the entire squad to wait for him. Drawing his gun between the "Standby" command and "Start Signal" is really pushing his luck. In respect of the dropped magazine, if this occurred after issuance of the "Start Signal", sorry, the meter is running and there's no way I can or will stop you. Hope the above helps. BTW, although this is not specifically stated in the rules now, the following draft rule is on the drawing board for consideration during the next revision: Proposed 5.7.1.1 A competitor who experiences a firearm malfunction while responding to the "Load And Make Ready" command is entitled to retire and repair his firearm, without penalty, subject to the provisions of Rule 5.7.4, Rule 8.3.1.1 and all other safety rules. Once the repairs have been completed (and the provisions of Rule 5.1.7 have been satisfied, if applicable), the competitor may return to attempt the course of fire, subject to scheduling as determined by the officiating Range Officer or Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Just a question, but if the competitor drew his firearm after AYR & Standby, but before the buzzer, are we really talking creeping? I would think that there is possible grounds for a DQ here. He has not been given a command to draw, the beeper, he is however under the observation and control of the RO. He is not exactly "Unsafe Gunhandling" unless you conside that playing with your sights while the gun is loaded is unsafe. I think that is one direction I could take. Are we also to understand that he took 10-15 MINUTES in the start box to do this? Again, I think as the RO, I might err on the side of leniency and ask the shooter if he is having a problem and would he like to stand down. GIven a negative reply, I would then ask the shooter AYR? If he continued to mess with his firearm, there is the provision of removing an unsafe firearm from a match that I would think I might apply here. He is then able to correct the problem off the clock and satisfying the MD, he can return to the match, no penalty. Jim Norman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 The shooter was not creeping.....Everything happened after the beep. It was LAMR, AYR, Standby, Beep.........SH*T, fiddle, fiddle.....FUDGE, fiddle fiddle, then the shooting began. It was 15 seconds and not minutes....sorry for the confusion, Hope that clears it up some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Tman, We pay prize money even at our local matches, so no, no restart from me. I'd treat dot failure the same as the gun breaking in the middle of the stage.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 With the clarification of it happened after the beep and it was seconds, not minutes, then he is on his own, don't break the 180 and dont sweep yourself, and no you can't run back to your bag for a tool. SHoot'em or stop and take the misses. Safety first, but Practical means it has to work when you draw, no do-overs! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hers's my take - If it is someone who should know better, ( like my GM buddy ) then no - I'd let them eat 15 sec. If it was a new shooter, I'd restart - just to be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 The shooter was not creeping.....Everything happened after the beep. It was LAMR, AYR, Standby, Beep.........SH*T, fiddle, fiddle.....FUDGE, fiddle fiddle, then the shooting began. It was 15 seconds and not minutes....sorry for the confusion. <massive groan> This is a no-brainer. Once the competitor reacts to the Start Signal, that's it - no mulligans. The relevant rules are: 5.7.1 In the event that a competitor's handgun malfunctions after the start signal, the competitor may safely attempt to correct the problem and continue the course of fire. During such corrective action, the competitor must keep the muzzle of the handgun pointing safely downrange at all times. The competitor may not use rods, or other tools to correct the malfunction. Violations will result in a zero score for the stage. <snip> 5.7.3 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the firearm safely downrange and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties. <snip> 5.7.5 Where the handgun has failed as above, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 Warp, That is my take also....with a new shooter, I am much more flexible and will "coach" when needed, or stop them and help them, as long as they stay safe. When new, the most important thing is to help them enjoy the experience....We want them to keep coming back right?. The shooter in question is a very experienced shooter, and is often known as the "range lawyer". That is why after the beep I let him take the time on the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 After the beep? Shoot what ya brung. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tman33_99 Posted May 17, 2004 Author Share Posted May 17, 2004 Vinny, I knew your response would be like it was....Thanks for the rule quotes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 TMan, You're most welcome, but here's another rule which doesn't apply to this particular case, but it would apply if the competitor stood there motionless after the Start Signal: 8.3.4 "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Vince It happened to me once. The voice of the protimer was very low, so I wasn't quite sure of the start signal. I thought I heard something, I jerked a bit and didn't know what to do, stand still for a couple minuet, then turn to RO and he showed a go go signal to me. Yes, I turned back and started shooting. Finally, the COF was finished with 3 misses included 1 penalty plus 10 more second. In this case, if I didn't start the silly shooting, may I asked for one more AYR and restart signal. Mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mai Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I mean, after I already jerk my arms and shoulders, but don't touch the gun yet. mai Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Hi Mai, The operative word in the subject rule is "react", and this might be interpreted differently by ROs, on a case-by-case basis. However provided you didn't touch your gun in any way, I would most likely give you a re-start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Me too. I see shooters start to "react" to various things. Sometimes shots from the range next door...sometimes they aren't sure if the buzzer went off or not. If I don't think the shooter got a good audible start signal, I won't hold them to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 I have drawn to find no dot. Once was brain fade the other time was an equipment problem. Both times I just shot and took my medicine. Forgetting to turn the dot on is just a brain fart and it has nothing to do with the letter on your classification card. Frankly, I don't understand why some of you folks would let a newer shooter blow it off and get overs, but you would hold a more experienced shooter accountable. Applying the rules as the mood strikes is a good way to build resentment and hard feelings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivanhu Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Just a question, but if the competitor drew his firearm after AYR & Standby, but before the buzzer, are we really talking creeping? I would think that there is possible grounds for a DQ here. He has not been given a command to draw, the beeper, he is however under the observation and control of the RO. No DQ. The LAMR command authorizes the shooter to handle his gun, and the DQ stands for unauthorized gun handling only. Last time I've checked I didn't see a "premature draw and/or shoot" DQ. And yes, after the LAMR command the RO is better to watch the shooter - that's why he's there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james h Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 i like the "proposed" 5.7.1.1 rule, it is about time we had something to back up the common sense decisions of RO's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted May 17, 2004 Share Posted May 17, 2004 Ivan, I didn't say I would DQ the shooter. I fully understand what you are saying, that under LAMR you can handle, so the only real call before the beeper would be "Creeping" one proceedural. Upon clarification that the beeper had sounded, the shooter is on his own. As someone else said WYSIWYG. No do overs in practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 What if the competitor "reacts" as you say, by drawing the gun, and it goes "click", but does not go off due to the mag not being seated. The shooter then refuses to continue. We CANNOT record a zero as the time...the rules say we MUST have a time, or give a reshoot (9.7.5). If the competitor does not fire a shot, yet his gun is servicable, what rule do you cite? 9.7.6 makes a bit of a case for if it is not "permissable", but who makes that judgement, and what rule do they back such a judgement up with??? He didn't fire a shot, and his equipment works. I smell loophole here. Uncle Vinny...you out there??? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Jeff, from your described case I have no other solution than to give one Procedure Error for creeping (IPSC 10.2.6 - quoted blow) as the competitor has started the Course of Fire. That the gun didn't go "BANG" is not relevant. If the competitor stops for whatever reason you follow the usual IYFUSC / ICHDH procedure, record the time (yes - 0:00 is a valid time) and score the targets with the appropriate Mikes and FTE's I see no circumstance to give a reshoot for the fact that he f***ed up this stage by starting prematurely and have a malfunction by not seating his magazine completely (or any other type of malfunction). So - after the shooter goes off and there are no safety issues he just has to continue until he is satisfied with his score. 10.2.6 A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the firearm, a reloading device or ammunition) or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position, posture or stance after the "Standby" command and prior to issuance of the start signal, will incur 1 procedural penalty. If the Range Officer can stop the competitor in time, a warning will be issued for the first offense and the competitor will be restarted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrettone Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Yoda, Maybe you misunderstand me. He didn't creep. He waited for the start signal, then reacted. His gun goes click, and he doesn't continue. How is creeping involved??? 10.2.6 says PRIOR to the start signal. And according to some, zero is not a valid time for a COF. Heck, ezwinscore won't even ACCEPT it!!! Some would argue, that without a time, we have no basis for NOT issuing a reshoot. Additionally they say that until you fire a shot, you haven't "bought it", meaning that you don't own the results without a time recorded. Seems the rules are vague in this regard. Please expound on your view, as I'm not sure I follow you. Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Jeff, I thought you were referring to a previous case in which the shooter started prematurely. My mistake If he reacts to the start signal then there is no problem. The shooter has the possibility to complete the COF but choses not to. Well ... too bad for him - just handle it as you would with any competitor who does not engage (shoots at) one or more targets. Score all targets with the appropriate number of hits, Mikes and FTE's and record the time as 0:00. I'm not familiar with EzWinscore but in MSS and WinMSS you have the possibility to enter either a zero time (MSS - which results in a DNF although that puppy doesn't exist anymore) or click the checkbox "zeroed stage" to handle this scoresheet in the Stats. Bottom line - the shooter choses not to complete the COF -> his problem. No reason whatsoever to grant him a re-shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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