sgrc1 Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I don´t seem to be able to make Major PF with my Limited .40 5 inch gun. I have a Schuemman Barrel, the barrel has a tungsten sleeve (Limcat). My load: - Bullet: Montana Gold 180gr, FMJ - Powder: VV320 @ 5.3grs - Primer: Winchester small pistol - Brass: whatever comes in handy, resized and cleaned. - Length: 1185 - Crimp: just take off the bell from the case, very light. The gun feels very good but I am getting only about 165PF, I am afraid to go with more powder as this is about the highest I have read for this load, any hints as to what can I do to have a workable safe load. Thanks Sergio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 What is your chrono reading? How many fps? Are you crimping to ~.420-4.21? That should (your combo) get you to major. Is your chronograph accurate and set up correctly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpeters8445 Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 What is your chrono reading? How many fps?That should (your combo) get you to major. Is your chronograph accurate and set up correctly? Yeh, I had the Chrono fool me a time or two. One time I was running Late for a major match and I had to load my ammo, chrono, and get on the road. When I went to chrono it was showing under major. I couldn't believe it. I went home, loaded more ammo with .03 more powder in the case in a hurry, and went back to the range. My new hotter ammo chronoed at 176 PF. I thought, that's strange. I shot the original ammo threw the chrono and it was right where it was supose to be 169 PF. I think that the sun fooled my chronograph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I think N320 is a bit fast for this application. Try a slower powder since there are lots out there. I use Winchester WST. Before the flames come I know alot of people use it but...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 I wouldn't call it flames exactly But - I'd guess this the most popular powder out there right now for 180 gr .40s - I have no problem getting major with 5 grains of N320 with MG 180 gr loaded 1.19 OAL... in my six inch gun I can go as low as 4.8 and be safe..... Before you give up on VV N320, try using Small Rifle primers instead, you might get a little help there..... you are loading such a high pressure load that you need Small Rifle primers for best ignition/ efficient combustion of the powder (and to help prevent primer flow) . Or so I've been told. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Sergio, You should be well into the major pf velocity with that load. Check it with another chronograph. You are looking for 920 fps and 5.3 gr of N320 should be there easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L9X25 Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 If your velocities are all almost exact you might be catching the "shockwave" instead of the bullet. I have seen that happen many times with limited guns. The giveaway is that all of the shots are almost exactly the same speed down to one FPS. If that happens you need more distance between you and the chrono. Good luck, Leo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasag93 Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 4.7 Tite Group @ your length. Gets me 168-169 PF. TG is such a vesatile powder. But, I would chrono the load again and make sure it wasn't giving false readings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 CHANGE PRIMERS! Use Small Rifle Primers instead of Small Pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I don't think longer would be good, as it is more case volume and would need more powder yet! 5.3 is MAJOR+ out of ANYTHING I have tried it in. I would look at the chrono, or just a bit more crimp....although I do it like you do, and don't even get a mark on a Montana gold bullet after it goes through My crimp die. 4.8 runs into the 169PF in both My pistols and you are there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I take it you are shooting IPSC, not USPSA? And, need to make 170+ power factor, instead of 165+ pf? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Sergio's in Guatemala... methinks so, Flex$... unless there's a 51st state I wasn't aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Yeah...I caught that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 I figured ya did. Is it possible the barrel is shot out and/or the bullets are undersized a bit? I've heard of slow/fast barrels, but that's a little ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 5.3 gr of N320 with a MG 180 FMJ at 1.20" will only squeak by at around 167 PF in my slow gun (5" STI bull bbl). So srgc1, you've got a slow barrel. It's not the end of the world. I load to past 170 PF with N320 and MG 180. It's not as sketchy as using Clays, but you can use rifle primers and/or a long firing pin if you think a little primer flow is possible. Don't listen to Kathy about the OAL; she may wear the pants in the family but she doesn't load the ammo. Longer is slower. She may be right about primers, but it's not totally consistent in my testing. My recent batch of WSR and WSP did produce slightly more speed with WSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Running your chrono in bright sunlight can cause problems occasionally. The other problem I've had is when one screen is shaded and the other in the sun. This will sound silly, but try to get your chrono under some even (but not dark) shade, then chrono your loads. We had collapsable car covers with white tarps at my old home range and the lighting under them was just perfect for the chrono. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgrc1 Posted May 16, 2004 Author Share Posted May 16, 2004 WOW, looks like Saturday night is the hot night for the Forum, I was out for dinner last night and just checked in early today and am surprised and pleased to see so many people wanting to help out. Yep, I am in Guatemala so that means IPSC and yes 170PF to make major (actually I wasn´t aware that in USPSA 165 was Major), I am getting an average velocity of 914FPS which translates to about 165PF, so I still need to go to a tad faster. The pistol is brand new and sois the Schuemann Ultimatch tungsten sleeved barrel, I don´t suppose the tungsten sleeve can make it any slower?. Also the firing pin in my Limcat Custom is a extra long firing pin. http://www.limcat.com/newpicts/WILDCATWEB.JPG I am using a PACT MKIV as a chrono and my test was under a cloudy morning, cool weather of about 23 degrees celcius. Unfortunatly being in Guatemala there isn´t a large array of reloading supplies, so last time there was powder I got a bunch of VV320 and a load of Titegroup (at the time I bought them I was shooting 9mm for production + these were the only powders that came here) so the change to a slower powder is not really a possibility for me, I am sort of stuck here but was told these should do OK for .40 Major, also there are not any small rifle primers, only small pistol so also out of the question. ( just for knowledge what is the benefit of small rifle vs small pistol in this load??) What I did get was a caliper last night so I was able to measure the crimp, current crimp is at .421, from what I have been reading I should crimp a bit more down to .419, might this solve the problem on its own? - ALSO if I do this what should I check as pressure signs: what is primer overflow?, and how should the primer in the brass look? (mine looks like the pin hole in the middle and then sort of a doughnut). Thanks alot for help to all!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joshua Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 sgrc1, In my 40 loads I usually get more velocity if I add more crimp. Now if I go crazy on the crimp the accuracy of my loads suffers. I usually load 4 grains of Titegroup with 180 Lead Truncated bullets from Laser-cast and I'm slightly over the 170 pf. But I do have a fast barrel, believe me this fast/slow barrel crap has taken it's toll on me too. usually a slow barrel calls for bigger diameter bullets, but that would raise your pressure more which you don't want if you are having pressure signs already. Goodluck buddy. josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Sgrc1, before trying to experiment with powder, you might want to try to experiment with...chrono. I'm actually trying to duplicate a very strange behaviour that a buddy of mines had with his chrono (If I remember well it was an Oehler, base model, one of those grey cigars with "antennas", if you know what I mean). Well, he has always chronoed his loads @ 174PF, but at last match, with a chrono similar to his, he was chronoed @ 167PF. He was a bit disappointed of this, and took home some unused bullets from his match. Well, to cut a long story short, @ home, with his chrono, he discovered that (from the same batch of reloads) if he chronoed with sunscreens on the Chrono, he was @ 173/174 PF, while removing the sunscreens was dragging him down to 167 PF. I'm actually trying to duplicate this strange behaviour both with a CED Millennium and a Chrony Beta model, but have been unsuccessful until now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Luca: My CED Millenium, would add on 50 fps by removeing the screen on a very bright day. Also had problems on a cloudy day. I finally found that in Colorado the sun never gets straight over head, and bright light from the side would also give erronious readings. I finally built a box for the screen part of the Chrono, and built in two 12volt lights right over the sky screens. Now I have NO problems it is consistent!! Matter of fact if I ever get "minored" at a match, and they don't have it in a box with a constant light source I will protest the chrono!! I have just seen to many variations in velocity over Chronos that are just set out in the sun. KURTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 In my humble experience with this combo, use small rifle primers for about 15-25fps more, and crimp around .420. The extra tension should help and wont affect accuracy for what you are doing. This aint the Bianchi cup and your Shuemann should shoot about anything well. If this doesnt get you there go up to 5.4. Every gun is different. Good luck, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmshtr Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Hi Sergio Phil Strader here. Hope you're well. Talk with Estuardo Gomez. I talked him into 200 grain bullets, which feel softer, and make the power factor more attainable. I load a 200 West Coast Bullet (which EG uses) loaded with 4.6 of N330 (faster powders like 320 can cause bullet tumbling w/ the copper plating) with small pistol magnum or small rifle primers. I'm consistantly around a 172-173 PF, and the load feels really good, so I'm told. I'm also using a stock STI barrel. I know it's a pain to switch bullet weights, but it may be worth it to get to that magic 170+ Take care, and I hope to see you soon. I'm trying to make preparations to hit the PanAmerican this year. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 ALSO if I do this what should I check as pressure signs: what is primer overflow?, and how should the primer in the brass look? (mine looks like the pin hole in the middle and then sort of a doughnut). Sounds like you are experiencing some primer flow.... the primer should look relatively flat, with just the firing pin mark in the center.... if you are having a raised "donut" in the middle of the primer, especially with a sorta sheared off or scraped look, thats usually the pressure from the case deforming the primer back into the firing pin hole when fired, making a raised donut look (primer flow). I'd bet your gun might also has lots of little brass or metal dust or shavings inside it now after prolonged shooting - pieces of the primer getting scraped off during ejection. Small Rifle primers help prevent this as they are made stronger for higher pressures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skywalker Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Thanks, for the tip, Kurt, you basically confirmed what my buddy told me: the chrono is light sensitive to both the ends (too much or too low light). I guess I'm almost sunproof, since I shoot @ 179 PF... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmitz Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Can't understand this, With 5.2 N320, 29.7mm OAL, 180 grs Berry's copperplated, WSP-primer and REM cartrigde reaching 1000 fps leaves me with a PF of 180 everytime in IPSC. Check your chrono!!! Henny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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