cworks Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) I have been slowly collecting the equipment needed to reload .223. One thing that I am having problems making a decision on is the best way the prep the brass. In another thread I have been asking a few questions and found out that there are two different opinions on brass prep. I want to use the Dillon 1200B or the Giraud.... Opinion 1. Use a Dillion 1200B to trim the brass, tumble and not chamfer Opinion 2. Trim the brass, deburr, and chamfer MY original question was which is best, Dillon 1200B or the Giraud. I started receiving answers that people didn't bother to deburr or chamfer that us the Dillion. The reason being is that the 1200B operates at such a high speed and slight angle that it doesn't require deburring. I think these people put a slight bell in the case mouth. What is everyone else's opinion? To deburr and chamfer or not? I would like to keep the discussion geared toward these two trimmers or trimmers similar to the Giraud. Edited September 24, 2011 by cworks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grant22 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I have been slowly collecting the equipment needed to reload .223. One thing that I am having problems making a decision on is the best way the prep the brass. In another thread I have been asking a few questions and found out that there are two different opinions on brass prep. I want to use the Dillon 1200B or the Giraud.... Opinion 1. Use a Dillion 1200B to trim the brass, tumble and not chamfer Opinion 2. Trim the brass, deburr, and chamfer MY original question was which is best, Dillon 1200B or the Giraud. I started receiving answers that people didn't bother to deburr or chamfer that us the Dillion. The reason being is that the 1200B operates at such a high speed and slight angle that it doesn't require deburring. I think these people put a slight bell in the case mouth. What is everyone else's opinion? To deburr and chamfer or not? I would like to keep the discussion geared toward these two trimmers or trimmers similar to the Giraud. It's my understanding that you would want to chamfer/debur if you are doing precision shooting. For plinking, not as big a deal. I'll be shooting half plinking and half precision, so I bit the big one and ordered a Giraud (as you know it takes care of 4 steps at once (trims, chamfers, deburs, and measures the case). I believe it'll b worth the extra couple hundred since it will save me a BUNCH of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I doubt you'll get a clear majority.. I think it's 50/50. You might do what I did.. try some... see if there's any difference for you.. if so.. go the whole route. I can see there could be a bit in favor of the reliabiulity for acutsally chambering the round, but no one I know does it, and I belive, if the dies are setup correctly, and you case gauge ur match ammo, you'll get 100% reliability. I went with the Dillon maybe 4 years ago... never looked back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 For three gun, the Dillon is fine and way faster. For precision, Giraud/Gracie. Chamfers/deburrs in one step, you can more easily adjust the neck tension of the case (when compared to the Dillon), etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWFAN Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 For three gun, the Dillon is fine and way faster. For precision, Giraud/Gracie. Chamfers/deburrs in one step, you can more easily adjust the neck tension of the case (when compared to the Dillon), etc. This. I think you're overthinking it. Either do, or dont, it wont really matter out of an Ar15. The brass I get is trimmed on a Dillon, and then I load it. Flat bottom bullets, or boat-tail. No big deal. If i get crazy, I'll use the 5$ lyman hand tool and chamfer some while watching TV. It doesnt hurt and I cant really tell if it helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 For three gun, the Dillon is fine and way faster. For precision, Giraud/Gracie. Chamfers/deburrs in one step, you can more easily adjust the neck tension of the case (when compared to the Dillon), etc. ^^^ what he said. For loading bulk quantities of "normal" ammo, I don't bother chamfering. For loading small quantities of "precision" ammo, it is worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I was in your shoes about 3 months ago and decided on the Giraud only because I also wanted to reload some 308 for my sniper rifle as well. In the last couple days, I have processed about 3 thousand .223 cases and I did it the long way...resize on a single stage, swage on a Dillon 600, and then trim with the Giraud. It really wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, but I gotta admit that if I only reloaded .223, I would go with the Dillon 1200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastmtnbiker33w Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I bit the bullet on a dillon trimmer and I'm very pleased. I use it for 223 only. I deprime and size/trim on my 550. Then tumble, check each primer pocket with a quick sweep with a hand held primer pocket cutter. Usually one turn takes out the really light crimp put into a lot of commercial brass. I know a lot of people don't like that and prefer to swage, but swaging is pretty slow unless you run a dillon 1050. I'll sort headstamps for my stuff with "better" bullets, put in a different toolhead that has my powder drop , seater, and factory crimp die. Check them all with a case gauge and I'm good to go. So maybe over the course of a few evenings I can load a 1000 rounds with a couple hundred being semi- precision rounds with a hollow point bullet. I use a Forster manual trimmer for my 308. They have the new cutter that does length and onside/outside chamfer. I can do 100 rounds in just over an hour....empty clean brass to loaded round. I haven't gone far enough with my 308 stuff to start worrying about neck tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 (edited) major thread drift ahead.... take a look at this screenshot I took from Natchez Shooter's Supplies's website: that is one thousand rounds of PMC bronze LOADED .223 ammo for 31 cents a round, delivered. Okay? for this next screenshot from the handloading calculator at Handloads.com, I went with 8 pounds of Varget at $137.99, each round takes 27.5 grains of Varget, Winchester Small Rifle Primers at $28.49 per one thousand, Scharch processed once fired brass of $113 per one thousand, and then Montana Gold 55 grain FMJBT's at $110 per one thousand. The price per round comes out to 31.9 cents! Are you sure you still want to reload? I am assuming you're getting brass for free, right? I see you're in your Class A's/mess dress (whatever you Army folks call it???) If you are getting your brass for free (military range scrounge'ings), then that knocks the price down to 20.6 cents each. But you will have to spend the money and time to get rid of the primer crimp. And, of course, if you're in Alaska, that shipping from Natchez is gonna change drastically. In which case, all of the above is moot. sigh...... Edited September 24, 2011 by Chills1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 getting back on topic.... some people will just tumble their freshly trimmed brass...and all that tumbling knocks all the inside burrs off. then they use a universal decapping die to knock out any walnut shell bits that might be stuck in the flashhole. the possum hollow tool holder will also accept perfectly a handheld chamfering deburring tool, so you can deburr the outside, and chamfer the inside having the RCBS X-sizer die kinda negates the need/want/lust for a Gracey or a Giraud trimmer. If you have a casefeeder equipped progressive press, then I would say "HECK YEAH!" to the Dillon 1200 trimmer. which is exactly what I did, but because of my work schedule I haven't been able to set it up to use it just yet. IMO, actually having to hold the brass in your fingers/hands with whatever trimmer is horribly inefficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigS. Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I have found that you need to run the neck sizer ball back through the case neck to remove the sharp edge left by the dillon 1200, if you don't it will shave the jacket back on the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cworks Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 I doubt you'll get a clear majority.. I think it's 50/50. Looks like you are right! So basically I have formed an opinion that chamfering and deburring is not necessary. This is obviously proven true because so many people don't do it!! This group that doesn't deburr or chamfur are not looking for precision shooting. Merely looking for rounds to put down range. The crowed that is FOR deburring and chamfering is geard more toward precision shooting. Or they just like knowing they have taking every step possible to produce the best quality ammo. For myself, I think I will be ordering the Giraud. Just for the simple fact that in my military career I have always been taught "you can always add to, but never take away". I would much rather know that I had taken every step to produce quality ammo. Even if "it doesn't really matter". Im one of those people who is always thinking, "Well if I would have done this better, I would have achieved a better result". Thanks for all the input and by all means continue discussing why your way is the better way Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cworks Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 major thread drift ahead.... I am assuming you're getting brass for free, right? I see you're in your Class A's/mess dress (whatever you Army folks call it???) If you are getting your brass for free (military range scrounge'ings), then that knocks the price down to 20.6 cents each. But you will have to spend the money and time to get rid of the primer crimp. And, of course, if you're in Alaska, that shipping from Natchez is gonna change drastically. In which case, all of the above is moot. sigh...... And FYI us "Army folks" call that uniform ASU's. It's the Army's new dress uniform. Stands for, Army Service Uniform. Yes I do pick up brass from a range but not from Military ranges. That would be illegal. But thanks for your input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Freeman Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 Chamfer, cant hurt and might help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dauntedfuture Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 I have a girud trimmer and its expensive. Its very fast and works well. Its likley that if you dont have a good chamfer you will shave bullets; how bad depends on how bad the bur is. Its possible to shave enough to cause problems chambering ammo. A possible solution is to use a Lyman M die in the station after your 1200 trimmer. It can be set to bell the neck ever so slightly as to negate the chamfer on the inside or smooth it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 major thread drift ahead.... take a look at this screenshot I took from Natchez Shooter's Supplies's website: that is one thousand rounds of PMC bronze LOADED .223 ammo for 31 cents a round, delivered. Okay? for this next screenshot from the handloading calculator at Handloads.com, I went with 8 pounds of Varget at $137.99, each round takes 27.5 grains of Varget, Winchester Small Rifle Primers at $28.49 per one thousand, Scharch processed once fired brass of $113 per one thousand, and then Montana Gold 55 grain FMJBT's at $110 per one thousand. The price per round comes out to 31.9 cents! Are you sure you still want to reload? I am assuming you're getting brass for free, right? I see you're in your Class A's/mess dress (whatever you Army folks call it???) If you are getting your brass for free (military range scrounge'ings), then that knocks the price down to 20.6 cents each. But you will have to spend the money and time to get rid of the primer crimp. And, of course, if you're in Alaska, that shipping from Natchez is gonna change drastically. In which case, all of the above is moot. sigh...... Flat rate shipping is our friend here in Alaska. I won't buy brass and bullets from companies that won't ship US priority mail flat rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrishoesel Posted May 23, 2016 Share Posted May 23, 2016 (edited) In my very uninformed and not expert opinion (IMVUANEO) lol I would skip chamfer/deburr on .223 unless you are shooting precision bolt rifles chambered in such. My bench has every tool imaginable for both plinker and precision ammo (S1050, RT1500, Forster CoAX, Giraud Trimmer, Giraud Annealer, 21st Century Neck turning lathe, and even a disused Hornady case prep center) All those tools take a second seat to the RT1500 trim motor and process toolhead on the 1050 for .223. Out of an AR, it makes no difference whether you chamfer/debur. The high volume ammo I turn out without chamfering/deburring is 1-1.5 MOA all day long with cheap Armscor 55gn BT bullets. I chamfer/deburr only on my single-stage precision rifle stuff. I'm about to try loading .308 now using the same method for an AR10 style LMT MWS, and will see how that goes. I will probably go the extra steps and chamfer/deburr them. I will still want to get the most precise ammo possible but maintain a decent loading volume. I know I'm not going to want to single-stage 2000 pieces of .308 ammo for an autoloading rifle, and will chamfer/deburr only if it really gives me noticeably higher precision. Depending on what press you have, and if you have a casefeeder, then definitely go with the RT1200/RT1500 motor/trim die and don't look back. Stainless steel tumbling does wonders for knocking the burrs off and I assume corncob will too. However if you do a lot of precision rifle ammo and don't have a casefeeder, then go with the Giraud. It's an amazing machine and very versatile plus it's fast once you have a rhythm going. P.S. Cost-wise, Trimmer motor and trim die will run almost the same as the Giraud. If considering only one or the other, get the Giraud because it's more versatile and produces a better finish. Edited May 23, 2016 by chrishoesel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokecloud Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 I went with the Dillon 1500 trimmer for .223 and had decided I didn't need to chamfer or deburr and had nothing but trouble. Even after 6 hrs of tumbling,the edge on the outside of the neck was still noticable on some cases, but no matter what, even an expander ball on the inside, I was still shaving copper from the burr on the inside, so I went back to chamfering and deburring after processing the brass on my 650 and all the bullet seating problems went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigedp51 Posted June 10, 2016 Share Posted June 10, 2016 (edited) I'm still using the Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 without any regrets. I use a VLD deburring tool on all my reloads and even for my two AR15 rifles for a very good reason. It aids in seating the bullet and reduces bullet runout and uniformity. If you are lazy and don't deburr you can use a Lyman type "M" expander die and just bump the second step of the expander to flare the case mouth. This will require to bump the case mouth with a taper crimp die for reliable feeding, Below on the right is a new unfired case that has not been trimmed and on the left is a trimmed case after wet tumbling with stainless steel media. Bottom line if you do not like deburring the case mouth then find another hobby. Edited June 10, 2016 by bigedp51 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 Bottom line if you do not like deburring the case mouth then find another hobby. Redonkulous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted June 11, 2016 Share Posted June 11, 2016 (edited) Bull. Use the above expander die or the Dillon swage hold down die to bell the case mouth, (removes the need to chamfer) and also use a taper crimp die to remove the bell. (Also removes the need to deburr). Thousands upon thousands of 223 and 308 rounds have been done this way. No need to chamfer or deburr! jj Eta; Using the Dillon trimmer and dies explained above allows for no individual handling of cases, while using the pencil sharpener type trimmer require it. Doing it on a progressive is worth much more than a comparison in price, and gets the job done in a fraction of the time. Ill take the progressive thank you... Edited June 11, 2016 by RiggerJJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I have been slowly collecting the equipment needed to reload .223. One thing that I am having problems making a decision on is the best way the prep the brass. In another thread I have been asking a few questions and found out that there are two different opinions on brass prep. I want to use the Dillon 1200B or the Giraud.... Opinion 1. Use a Dillion 1200B to trim the brass, tumble and not chamfer Opinion 2. Trim the brass, deburr, and chamfer MY original question was which is best, Dillon 1200B or the Giraud. I started receiving answers that people didn't bother to deburr or chamfer that us the Dillion. The reason being is that the 1200B operates at such a high speed and slight angle that it doesn't require deburring. I think these people put a slight bell in the case mouth. What is everyone else's opinion? To deburr and chamfer or not? I would like to keep the discussion geared toward these two trimmers or trimmers similar to the Giraud. On fmj blasting ammo I don't deburr chamfer. On match ammo I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Yeaaaah.........then theres me. I dont even trim my AR brass. Never have, never will. I always use once fired military brass. Remove primer crimp and load away. Case guage every round and set asside any that look like they might be longer than I like. I do shoot those later looking for sighns of any pressure problems or reliability. Never an issue. Always great accuracy too. In the right AR ive had 1/2 moa. Mostly about 1 moa. Been doin it that way for years and 10's of thousands of rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwall64 Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I notice a big difference in accuracy in a RRA LAR-15 Vatmint gun between chamfering or not. So I went the Giruad path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Religious Shooter Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I notice a big difference in accuracy in a RRA LAR-15 Vatmint gun between chamfering or not. So I went the Giruad path. What trimmer were/are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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