Heavy Metal poll

[P.E. Kelley]

Perhaps some of you may try your hand IF you knew how to run Irons.

Irons sight shooting.

JJ, I am sorry for my craptastic attitude, it is just all I ever here is excuses why "they don't" or "can't"

or wish it was more suited to them and how it needs to be changed.

To some degree I am party to that as I would like the division to enjoy more participation (like I witnessed before HM Optic invention)

and was hoping one of these approaches would work.

I, you, Kurt, Trapr and Bruce among others all wear prescription glasses, yet we can shoot Irons.

The only Iron Sight dude I know who still has razor vision is Big Bore and he is happy shooting in Limited!

Question people...can you see the freekin target??? If not what are you shooting at?

If, I say IF, you can ONLY see the target while looking though optics then you are exempt,

otherwise learn to shoot Irons and come see what the fuss is all about!

Yep some of us ain't like we used to be and must move on. Our bodies are broken and we can't shoot a

pump. Some of you don't want to shoot a pump. Some other want to shoot a 40 or a 9 or a 10

but this is HE-MAN and you bring to the party what the party demands.

We have lots of divisions if HM doesn't suit pick one that does.

Maybe this should have gone in the HATE section but I don't hate. I try to help where I can

and get along the best I can, but sometimes I do get a little PO'ed!

Sorry for the rant.

Patrick

[1chota]

I started shooting He-Man at RM3G in 2004. i had an M1A, an 870 and a 1911. I shot He_man until the end of 2007 when my 60 year old (at that time) eyes decided they couldn't see the front sight. i switched to scope. if i get corrective lenses where i see the sights, i cannot, i repeat cannot, see the target at distance. there is a big dif between near sighte folks and far sighted folks. nuf said on that. i agree with the .45 and pump 12 ga. Kirk at ozark called his class heavy optic and allowed an autoloading shotgun. i agree He-Man should be pump shotgun. if a 1x optic is allowed, then why not allow a magnified optic??????? if you think it don't mean nothing look at Denise's post where more than twice as many competitors shot He-Man scope as He-Man irons.

if the MD has a different set of rules than you like, then don't shoot that match. me, i like shooting the .308 (carried one for many years) and i like the 12 gauge pump (carried one of those for many years, too). i only toted a .45 for a short while, but it fits my normal sized hands.

again, don't be so anal that you quit the course. Pat, i really like to watch you shoot that M1A. come back.

if you guys want real He-Man, shoot the Texas Multi-gun next spring where the WWII division is gonna be happening: M1 Garand, pump 12 ga. and 1911 .45.

[Benelli Chick]

Here's an idea...

At Johnson 3-Gun, we only had room for 90 competitors, so we didn't want really small divisions, so we only had one He-Man division, Iron .308, .45 pistol, pump shotgun...BUT, we allowed a scope on the .308 for those shooters in the division 55 years or older. Eddie wasn't yet 55, but Wynn was! It was an experiment on our part, but it might be an okay idea for those matches out there trying to consolidate He-Man or their divisions in general!

Rocky Mountain 3-Gun will be continuing with both He-Man Iron and He-Man Scope, at least for the near future, but it worked okay for Johnson 3-Gun and it's just an idea!

Denise

[1chota]

Here's an idea...

At Johnson 3-Gun, we only had room for 90 competitors, so we didn't want really small divisions, so we only had one He-Man division, Iron .308, .45 pistol, pump shotgun...BUT, we allowed a scope on the .308 for those shooters in the division 55 years or older. Eddie wasn't yet 55, but Wynn was! It was an experiment on our part, but it might be an okay idea for those matches out there trying to consolidate He-Man or their divisions in general!

Rocky Mountain 3-Gun will be continuing with both He-Man Iron and He-Man Scope, at least for the near future, but it worked okay for Johnson 3-Gun and it's just an idea!

Denise

yup, i am definitely over 55. real quick i will be 64.

wynn

[Bryan 45]

Denise, JJ puts a whippin on me already on the rifle stages when we're both shooting irons. I don't know that I'd be as interested in shooting against him if he got to use an optic! (My apologies JJ if you're not yet 55.)

Ozark recognized He-Man and Heavy Optic. There were more shooters in He-Man than HO. And it was quite a competitive bunch too!

[Benelli Chick]

Denise, JJ puts a whippin on me already on the rifle stages when we're both shooting irons. I don't know that I'd be as interested in shooting against him if he got to use an optic! (My apologies JJ if you're not yet 55.)

Ozark recognized He-Man and Heavy Optic. There were more shooters in He-Man than HO. And it was quite a competitive bunch too!

Bryan, Don't worry...he is 55! I think he would probably still use irons. He likes his sights for long range. Thinks the red dot is better close up...

It was just an idea! Might be worth thinking about!

Edited September 25, 2011 by Benelli Chick

[DMS42]

I started shooting He-Man at RM3G in 2004. i had an M1A, an 870 and a 1911. I shot He_man until the end of 2007 when my 60 year old (at that time) eyes decided they couldn't see the front sight. i switched to scope. if i get corrective lenses where i see the sights, i cannot, i repeat cannot, see the target at distance. there is a big dif between near sighte folks and far sighted folks. nuf said on that. i agree with the .45 and pump 12 ga. Kirk at ozark called his class heavy optic and allowed an autoloading shotgun. i agree He-Man should be pump shotgun. if a 1x optic is allowed, then why not allow a magnified optic??????? if you think it don't mean nothing look at Denise's post where more than twice as many competitors shot He-Man scope as He-Man irons.

if the MD has a different set of rules than you like, then don't shoot that match. me, i like shooting the .308 (carried one for many years) and i like the 12 gauge pump (carried one of those for many years, too). i only toted a .45 for a short while, but it fits my normal sized hands.

again, don't be so anal that you quit the course. Pat, i really like to watch you shoot that M1A. come back.

if you guys want real He-Man, shoot the Texas Multi-gun next spring where the WWII division is gonna be happening: M1 Garand, pump 12 ga. and 1911 .45.

Now that sounds like it could be fun. I like shooting the M1 rifle, it makes you learn how to deal with recoil. And then there would be the slight problem of reloading and finding enough places to store all the en-bloc clips of ammo.

[dillon]

Denise and JJ,

It might be an interesting mathematical exercise to combine the He-man iron and optics scores to see how the results are changed. Obviously you now only have one winner, but i wonder how the percentages shift. RM3G has enough data to make it worth the effort.

BTW, I am probably going to switch to HeMan optics next year. My contacts are great for rifle irons, but really mess with my handgun sighting. Keep HeMan 308 rifle, 45 handgun, 12 ga pump!

[bigbrowndog]

Why don't we change it to allow a .223 rifle with an optic, because I don't like having to do reloads and its much cheaper and its a lot easier to see targets with an optic and then an auto shotgun, but limit the capacity to 9 at the start. and then maybe allow a 40 or 9 hicap pistol???????

I'm with PK on this and looking at moving to a division with more competitors, The majority of shooters in the US simply want things easier, faster, cheaper, with less work/practice etc, its a shame that the values and ability that PK refers to in his article about iron sight shooting will not be pursued by people, simply because "its hard" or "expensive".

As far as I'm concerned my opinion on HM is already known, the way RM3G runs it is what I like, HMO is a healthcare term and has no place in a multigun match. But by all means change it to suit yourself, chances are the people that you were hoping to compete against won't be there when you do.

Trapr

[Mike P]

This question comes up in one form or another often, it seems like at least once a year, maybe more. I only shoot it occasionally, but like it fine the way it is. If however a MD wants to offer something different, then by all means just post it in the rules.

FWIW the HM only match sounds like really great idea too, hopefully organized by someone who actually shoots irons. I'd up the time I'm willing to drive for a major match by a couple of hours to participate.

[Jesse Tischauser]

We just need a HM only match that is so awesome us TO guys have no choice but to gear up and attend.

[dillon]

RM3G is an awesome match, probably the best event for HM. Distances out to 600 + yards, varying terrain,great prize table!

Dig out your battle rifle and come compete.

[springy]

Here's an idea...

At Johnson 3-Gun, we only had room for 90 competitors, so we didn't want really small divisions, so we only had one He-Man division, Iron .308, .45 pistol, pump shotgun...BUT, we allowed a scope on the .308 for those shooters in the division 55 years or older. Eddie wasn't yet 55, but Wynn was! It was an experiment on our part, but it might be an okay idea for those matches out there trying to consolidate He-Man or their divisions in general!

Rocky Mountain 3-Gun will be continuing with both He-Man Iron and He-Man Scope, at least for the near future, but it worked okay for Johnson 3-Gun and it's just an idea!

Denise

I like this!! I'll be 66 this summer, so: scope @ 55 + bipod @ 60 + unlimited magazine @ 65 ???

[springy]

I've been shooting HM only, for about 10 years now, and at matches that didn't have enough to make the division, I shot/shoot limited with the same equipment, so I'm thinking I'm qualified to at least express an opinion about it.

For me the prize table is a big part of the equation about quantity of shooters. And before you start hollering about only shooting for the prize table, think about this: if you shoot the match well, and there is a choice of using one set of guns and picking up $500 off the table, or using another set of guns and picking up a hat and 2 sample bottles of oil off the table.... actually, if I have to explain that, I don't want to spend the rest of today trying to.

There will be an argument about how much more fun the HM gear is. I'll have fun with it on Tuesday afternoon at my range, but I'm going to shoot something a little more productive at a match that cost me $250 to enter, $233 in gas to get there and back home (1000 + 1000 @ 30 mpg), 3 nights in a motel, and 24 hours behind the wheel. I mean like DUH?

Where I'm going with this is, is, instead of trying to massage the rules to trick someone into shooting the match, and not knowing how that will affect other shooters, i.e. allow red dots and totally piss off the guys that actually shoot irons (who then don't shoot the match), how about putting a couple rifles and a pistol and a Hornady progressive loader on the HM prize table???? There may be a match where there are only 5 or 6 HM shooters present (really happy HM shooters ), but at the next match signup, I'm thinking there will be a lot more HM shooters signing up.

Just shooting for the prize table? Not really! I signed up to shoot the match, totally enjoy shooting the match, doesn't matter what guns I shoot the match with, but at the end of the match, when EVERYONE goes to the prize table, why would I be happy with my new hat as I watch someone carry one of those humongous progressive loader boxes out the door for 28th place?

Sam Keen put on the Mississippi State 3gun match a few years ago. He stated if 20 HM shooters signed up, he would put an M1a on the table. 19 signed up.

Or maybe it was the fact it was 308 gear on the HM table, instead of 9mm and 223 items, but that's a whole nuther line of whining.

Edited November 20, 2011 by springy

[bigbrowndog]

very well put mr. springy!!!

Trapr

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

I like that idea!

I've been shooting HM since I started 3-gun. I've been to a major match out-of-town where I took 2nd Place Overall and the most expensive prize left on the table was a case of 223 ammo (1st place prize was a 223 rifle). It was disappointing, but I couldn't let it ruin the love for the sport and the great match that it was.

I'll keep shooting HM. Perhaps in time, I can beat that Trapr guy for the rifle.

[bigbrowndog]

My intention was to swap to limited for the next year due to the increase in participation in that division, I felt possibly it would increase the booty placed on that table in the end. However the lesser divisions still get dealt a cheap blow and if I am going to shoot for lower end afterthought prizes I may as well shoot the division that I enjoy the most, and thats Heavy Metal.

So its HM for me at least for another year, although if MD's insist on not painting targets, or not using contrasting backers, or going with smaller than 4moa targets, then after trying to beat sense into heads for the last 8 years or so, the thing to do may be play with a magnified optic, a mouse gun, and cheaper ammo.

Trapr

[Bryan 45]

My intention was to swap to limited for the next year due to the increase in participation in that division, I felt possibly it would increase the booty placed on that table in the end. However the lesser divisions still get dealt a cheap blow and if I am going to shoot for lower end afterthought prizes I may as well shoot the division that I enjoy the most, and thats Heavy Metal.

So its HM for me at least for another year, although if MD's insist on not painting targets, or not using contrasting backers, or going with smaller than 4moa targets, then after trying to beat sense into heads for the last 8 years or so, the thing to do may be play with a magnified optic, a mouse gun, and cheaper ammo.

Trapr

Best news I've heard all day, of course it's still early. Glad to hear you've decided to stay w/ HM, Trapr.

[1chota]

"So its HM for me at least for another year, although if MD's insist on not painting targets, or not using contrasting backers, or going with smaller than 4moa targets, then after trying to beat sense into heads for the last 8 years or so, the thing to do may be play with a magnified optic, a mouse gun, and cheaper ammo.

trapr"

amen brother! the one match i really love to shoot WILL NOT paint the steel. i liked the contrasting backers at the Ozark match, however they were not used on all steel. ???? i like the idea of having a special bunch of people who tape, paint, re-set and have tip-jars at each stage.( like 4H, Boy Scouts, Future Farmers, etc.) un-plug those deaf ears out there!

Edited November 22, 2011 by 1chota

[mr50mag]

The major problem IMHO is the lousy target presentation, and every MD is guilty.

From unrealistic size targets that you can't see and just shoot at to engage without any intent of hitting to this misguided notion with fluorescent backers that conceal impacts and don't allow correction.

If you want people to shoot irons give them a target they can see from 8am-5pm that is proportionate to the distance. Since we are on the subject how about painting them too between squads with irons getting priority or 1st shooter preference.

I believe this would level out the divisions and swell the prize table as well. The only difference between LIm and Tac is the scope to see the targets.

I shot the last 3 matches of the season and the target presentation was disgraceful and somewhat disrespectful to the Iron shooters in both divisions. HM rant off.

The MDs will kill the division off if they continue down this path.

What's wrong with a standard size target like 10" flashers from 100-200yds, 12" from 300-400yds and 8" from 50-100yds. Keep them white so you can see them against your black irons.

Rob

[michael1778]

I'm still new on this forum and haven't shot my first 3-gun match (January 2012). But I thought that newbie perspective might be a useful one in it's own limited way.

Generally, I enjoyed watching 3-gun Nation episodes this season. However, watching Jerry M, Maggie and Mike all shoot open for a couple of episodes was discouraging. It was a total "gear war" on top of the skill battle (they are all scary good). My least favorite episodes. My favorite? The one of Bryan and Rob competing in HM (Ozark?) . That was bad ass, gentlemen! Before I heard about prize tables or anything like that I sat up and said, "Hell yes. I need to shoot that division!" I was already interested in the calibers. Heck, Bryan doesn't even have sponsorship and is competitive. I already had the .45 and was looking hard at a .308 rifle. Granted, I'll totally suck for a long time (almost no rifle time/skill), *but* shooting the classical trio of .308, .45 and pump gun is awesome. It's disheartening to hear about how prize tables may be skewed at matches and such.

Also, HM with magnified optics seems like it isn't much more than Tac Optics (again, newbie theory mostly). When people talk about their .308 shooting almost like a .223 if they put on the right brake, then what is the point after you add a big scope? Especially, if they can use the fancy small caliber race pistols and semi-auto shotguns? Just seems like Tac scope with more expensive rifle ammo and more magazine changes. Yes, I'm new. I could very well not know a blasted thing of which I am speaking. If so, then please accept my apology now.

Personally, I want to learn iron sight use even if it's tough. And I don't want to get in a "scope war" with others and their super expensive Uber Optics (that gets expensive). 1x optics could be a useful compromise. I'm interested in more discussion about this. But I hope the idea of heavy caliber rifles, pistols and 12ga pump doesn't go away.

Maybe I have some romantic notions about the heavy calibers....I don't know. Well, yeah I do. I'm dying to shoot WW2 Division in Texas but may not get all the gear in place in time. My .45 is a S&W M&P, not a single stack. My M1 Garand "crush" is strong, however. So I'm a big bore romantic.

Anyway, I'd love to watch Patrick shoot HM again someday at a match where I can watch him. Bryan is my "hero" as an unsponsored shooter. And Rob was fun to watch with Bryan. I"m very glad to watch him shoot HM. Great competition gentlemen. I thank you!!

And thank you all for this informative thread. I hope more discussion will continue and maybe some of the match ideas can be tried in the months ahead.

Best Regards,

Mike

[DinosaurMikeGolf]

Like Michael1778 just above, I am going HM for the LaRue Texas Multigun in April in WWII division. My firearms are an H&R M1, Maverick 88 pump, and STI Spartan in .45 ACP. With access to two local 3 guns a month, one of which is at Best of the West Range in Liberty Hill, TX, I should get plenty of practice sighting in and reloading after the ping!

[michael1778]

Like Michael1778 just above, I am going HM for the LaRue Texas Multigun in April in WWII division. My firearms are an H&R M1, Maverick 88 pump, and STI Spartan in .45 ACP. With access to two local 3 guns a month, one of which is at Best of the West Range in Liberty Hill, TX, I should get plenty of practice sighting in and reloading after the ping!

Ahhhh, the ping. Perhaps it was a tactical disadvantage in some cases.....but so distinctive.

[Jeff F]

I also am think about shooting the larue match in WW2 style. I have been shooting HM at my home club when I get the chance. I do it just to shoot some of the guns I dont get to pull out much.

I am with JJ and leave it the way it is. Why do we have to keep making things easier. If you want easy shoot TO or Limited where you can have your 20x optic to shoot at 300 yards.

[Langenator]

Like Michael1778 just above, I am going HM for the LaRue Texas Multigun in April in WWII division. My firearms are an H&R M1, Maverick 88 pump, and STI Spartan in .45 ACP. With access to two local 3 guns a month, one of which is at Best of the West Range in Liberty Hill, TX, I should get plenty of practice sighting in and reloading after the ping!

Ahhhh, the ping. Perhaps it was a tactical disadvantage in some cases.....but so distinctive.

[Python]

"We've got the machine that goes 'PING!'"

[/Python]

DMG...I envy your free time and ammo budget...would chaining an 8 year old to a Dillon loader violate child labor laws?