Heavy Metal poll

[dcloudy777]

I love shooting HM, but I kinda miss shooting in a big division. I've never done a big match with HM irons/scope, but that's gonna make the division even smaller. I've been thinking for awhile about what would happen if HM was rolled into the other divisions with a scoring advantage. I even went so far as to come up with a type of scoring advantage for various scoring systems. A HM rifle or pistol must comply with the regs of whatever division, must be of HM caliber (.308/.45), and is limited to 20/10 rds. Competitors can shoot HM for either rifle, pistol, or both. What does everyone think? I put in one question for current HM shooters, and one for non HM shooters. Thanks for the input.

Edited September 23, 2011 by dcloudy777

[Bryan 45]

Dan, the problem w/ the pole is we have to vote for both topics. It won't let me only vote under "current HM shooters."

I enjoy shooting all the heavy guns. I would be hard pressed to pick which one to give up.

I think I'm following where you are going. The small division has never bothered me. Each match I'm shooting against myself, not the other shooters. If I shoot a match or stage well, I'm not overly concerned with coming in 1st or 8th in HM. Same when I shoot a stage poorly. Winning is fun, but I would much rather be pleased with my performance and come in something other than 1st than shoot a terrible match (again based on my own expectations of my capabilities) and come in 1st. Do I make any sense or am I just crazy?

[dcloudy777]

Fixed the poll... I think.

[P.E. Kelley]

Great...another change to the smallest division.

The answer has been expressed many, many, many times before by people who ACTUALLY shoot the division!

Change nothing EXCEPT>>> Allow 1X optics on the rifle.

Same 20 round (308 Winchester / 7.61x51 ONLY) Rifle.

PUMP shotgun damn it! Man up or move on! 9 max at the start.

Pistol 45 ACP!!! You can pick the platform. Limit 10 rounds.

The resurgence we have seen in Limited is absolutly due to the inclusion of 1x optics! Let us do the same for HM/He-Man.

Actually I don't know why I bother, this poor little division just needs to die. One of the reasons I don't shoot it anymore.

Patrick

[Lead-Head]

I would give it a try if 308 ammo wasn't so much more. I have a crapload of 45 ACP handguns, no problem there.

I shoot a .40 pistol in TI, since I heard 9mm makes you weak.

[Mickster]

Please let's not allow the most challenging form of 3-gun to fall by the wayside.

I'm planning on doing HM in major matches for 2012. And where the match would allow it, with a 1x4 scope on my rifle.

We already have:

Tac lite optic and Tac lite iron and

Tac Heavy Iron.

Lets add:

Tac Heavy optic

The other 2 guns for Heavy? A .45 and pump 12 as it should be.

At least for Rocky Mountain. The way the prize table is run it would be interesting and possibly encourage more participation in Heavy.

Anyway, for the Larue Pacific Theater match at Best of the West I plan on shooting my M1 Garand, 45 single stack and 870 pump. That's kind of He-Man/Heavy Metal right?

[cold]

The answer has been expressed many, many, many times before by people who ACTUALLY shoot the division!

Change nothing EXCEPT>>> Allow 1X optics on the rifle.

Same 20 round (308 Winchester / 7.61x51 ONLY) Rifle.

PUMP shotgun damn it! Man up or move on! 9 max at the start.

Pistol 45 ACP!!! You can pick the platform. Limit 10 rounds.

The resurgence we have seen in Limited is absolutly due to the inclusion of 1x optics! Let us do the same for HM/He-Man.

Patrick

Makes sense to me. Lets do it.

Edited September 23, 2011 by cold

[1chota]

Great...another change to the smallest division.

The answer has been expressed many, many, many times before by people who ACTUALLY shoot the division!

Change nothing EXCEPT>>> Allow 1X optics on the rifle.

Same 20 round (308 Winchester / 7.61x51 ONLY) Rifle.

PUMP shotgun damn it! Man up or move on! 9 max at the start.

Pistol 45 ACP!!! You can pick the platform. Limit 10 rounds.

The resurgence we have seen in Limited is absolutly due to the inclusion of 1x optics! Let us do the same for HM/He-Man.

Actually I don't know why I bother, this poor little division just needs to die. One of the reasons I don't shoot it anymore.

Patrick

i don wanna die! up to that point i was with you. man up, you manly man and come back.

[1chota]

Please let's not allow the most challenging form of 3-gun to fall by the wayside.

I'm planning on doing HM in major matches for 2012. And where the match would allow it, with a 1x4 scope on my rifle.

We already have:

Tac lite optic and Tac lite iron and

Tac Heavy Iron.

Lets add:

Tac Heavy optic

The other 2 guns for Heavy? A .45 and pump 12 as it should be.

At least for Rocky Mountain. The way the prize table is run it would be interesting and possibly encourage more participation in Heavy.

Anyway, for the Larue Pacific Theater match at Best of the West I plan on shooting my M1 Garand, 45 single stack and 870 pump. That's kind of He-Man/Heavy Metal right?

remember to bring bayonet. Sheldon likes us to stick something during his match.

[Big Bore]

I have all the gear to shoot heavy metal but just never have. I've been sticking to limited.

Maybe one of these days.

[A well Earled machine]

I'm with Pat. However, if a MD were to create a division that were He Man but allowed a magnifing optic, I would proably dust off the M1A SM again. I do enjoy shooting my SA longslide , my 870 and the M1A. It is getting hard to see the little steel targets through the peep though so a VP scope & Switchview would be nice.

[RiggerJJ]

What is so hard to understand about "Leave the smallest division alone and let it grow!!!!" Why do people that DONT SHOOT HeMan seem to have all the answers on how to fix something that isn't broke? Its not an easy division to shoot. If you want to shoot it, buckle down and PRACTICE with iron sights and you will hit "the little steel targets thru the peep". Yea, they are still hard to hit, especially if you haven't practiced. Yea, a scope is EASIER. SO??? I don't buy the "I'm getting old and can't see as well" excuse either, unless you have cataracts. I "lost" my young eyes over 10 years ago, but thru perseverance I have found corrective lenses that WORK. you can too.

And PK, saying let it die is a kick in the you know what… surprising that you would say that…

Just for the record, we polled RM3G HeMan Iron shooters about the 1x thing, and about 65% of them said leave it at iron sights, so we did.

HEMAN is and always will be;

308 rifle, 20 round mags

45 Cal pistol 10 rounds

Pump 12 gauge shotgun 8+1

Making HEMAN a small catagory of the big division is NOT at all appealing...so, shoot HEMAN the way it is, or drink the koolaid!

Sheese…

jj

Edited September 24, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Stlhead]

I agree with J.J.and Pat both! Either leave it the way it is or kill it.

[P.E. Kelley]

JJ. I love you man but the facts are that He-Man Iron is not growing and has not for the last 6 years.

If anything the numbers have dwindled.

I see two reasons.

#1 Shooters don't want to put in the effort to run Iron sights (that is why 1x optics would help!)

#2 We have split the number of shooters by creating the heavy optic division.

Two ways to go in my mind.

Let optics of any kind in.

OR

Allow 1x optics.

But for me and this is just me...

Keep the pump and 45acp.

Bottom line ONE DIVISION for all HE-MEN / Heavy Metalists.

At least that way we may have 25 to 35 guys in the field.

My bias is that IF we went with 1x optics I would let all of you beat me up using your fancy 1x against my stone age M14 with Irons!

If we went with any optic then the M14 is out of the picture. Scopes and 14's don't mix very well

JJ, I really don't want the division to die. I just want to swim in a bigger pool.

Patrick

[Benelli Chick]

Why no shotgun in the mix??? I tried to shoot it, but I can't carry all that stuff. I'm a whimp!

Anyway, at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun 2011, we had 15 in Heavy Iron and 37 in Heavy Scope. That's over 50 shooters! Not terrible!

Just saying!

Denise

[Stlhead]

Pat, Depending on how you measure growth, I am not sure that we have had any growth in our sport over the last few years. Participation at major matches has been static because there is no additional capacity for increased participation. I personally have not seen an increase in the number of regional or local matches either. If He Man has declined in popularity it is because a portion of those shooters have chosen to shoot in other divisions or stopped shooting for some reason and been replaced by shooters who have decided not to shoot the man class. The rise in popularity of Tac optics has been to the detriment of the other divisions. You yourself, one of the people most known for shooting Heavy metal have been shooting nearly every division but HM lately. Combining heavy optics and traditional Heavy metal might not even keep the same number of shooters that the two have now. If the optics guys had to use a pump and a limited ten 45 I bet many would jump to scope tac.

J.J. Your match this year was most likely the last match that I will shoot in HM for quite some time. There Are just not enough HM shooters in my area. Some matches don't even recognize it. In limited there is much more competition and a much harder field to shoot against. There is no shortage of people to whoop up on my slow ass in limited in this part of the country (and every where else for that matter). About the only way I see HM gaining in popularity is if it becomes separate matches entirely, or if it is required by three gun nation to shoot all of the divisions or something wacky like that.

I feel if we want to grow our sport, or any divisions of the sport, the best way is to hold more matches so we can get more people to play.

[P.E. Kelley]

Stlhead,

You have a good point. Combining may get the man< to bail because of the pump and that is not what I want.

For the life of me I still don't see what Heavy Optics is without the pumpgun? Oh yea it is Tactical Optics light.

Denise/JJ thanks for keeping the pumpgun AND the 45 in He-Man and HM optics at your match!

Patrick

[Benelli Chick]

Patrick,

JJ would be so proud of you calling it by the real name...He-Man!

You're the man!

It started at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, and we're going to do our best to keep it going!

.308, 045, pump .12!!!!

Denise

[1chota]

Why no shotgun in the mix??? I tried to shoot it, but I can't carry all that stuff. I'm a whimp!

Anyway, at Rocky Mountain 3-Gun 2011, we had 15 in Heavy Iron and 37 in Heavy Scope. That's over 50 shooters! Not terrible!

Just saying!

Denise

and please note, that there were over twice as many shooting the scope He-Man as the iron sight He-Man. I being one of them. in law enforcement we call that a 'clue'. hence my vote for allowing scopes.

[dcloudy777]

I share most of the sentiment here, and I think that's the advantage to my Crazy Scheme. HM "goes away" as a separate division, but HM shooters can still shoot HM gear with recoil/capacity penalties being somewhat offset by a scoring advantage. We can still have our secret handshake and grow facial hair, we just shoot in the "herd" divisions with manly guns. Want to shoot in open? Put two sights and a bipod on, build an old-school IPSC gun, single stack with a comp and a dot. Tac optics, tac irons... same thing, just configure the big guns accordingly. Want to shoot the .308 but suck at pistol reloads? You can still shoot the mouse pistol, but you only get the scoring advantage with the rifle. Now, what this does leave out is the pump shotgun. Ideally, a "Production" class will spring up and give the trombone gun a competitive place to play. As of now, I can't really think of a way to do a scoring advantage with shotgun targets.

[HRider]

I share most of the sentiment here, and I think that's the advantage to my Crazy Scheme. HM "goes away" as a separate division, but HM shooters can still shoot HM gear with recoil/capacity penalties being somewhat offset by a scoring advantage. We can still have our secret handshake and grow facial hair, we just shoot in the "herd" divisions with manly guns. Want to shoot in open? Put two sights and a bipod on, build an old-school IPSC gun, single stack with a comp and a dot. Tac optics, tac irons... same thing, just configure the big guns accordingly. Want to shoot the .308 but suck at pistol reloads? You can still shoot the mouse pistol, but you only get the scoring advantage with the rifle. Now, what this does leave out is the pump shotgun. Ideally, a "Production" class will spring up and give the trombone gun a competitive place to play. As of now, I can't really think of a way to do a scoring advantage with shotgun targets.

Sure you can, Dan. The pump shotgun targets score twice as much as Auto targets. or in the case of time plus scoring, you get a 1 second per target deduction for the pump.

Hurley

[djeffers]

I bought/have all the stuff to shoot HM, but I honestly can't help but see $$$ signs every time I fire a round of .308! I don't mind the pump so much, but I do like the idea of the automatic in Heavy Optic.

I am sure this has been brought up before, but would there be enough interest to have a dedicated match to HM & HMO? My guess is that there isn't or else someone would have been done it already. I am just wondering how many people out there have the equipment but just don't shoot that class at major matches (for one reason or another)?

Also kind of like the idea of just one round on paper with HM/HMO scoring wise (goes back to the first sentence above).....feasible?

[DMS42]

If I could I would always shoot HM. But my left arm and shoulder quits working now before the match is over. I could learn how to shoot the shotgun left handed, but any more I much prefer to use an auto shotgun. So I either will shoot in whatever class/division that will let me shoot my M1A, a .45 and the auto shotgun or shoot the scoped AR, my Limited .40 and the auto shotgun.

[RiggerJJ]

I bought/have all the stuff to shoot HM, but I honestly can't help but see $$$ signs every time I fire a round of .308! I don't mind the pump so much, but I do like the idea of the automatic in Heavy Optic.

I am sure this has been brought up before, but would there be enough interest to have a dedicated match to HM & HMO? My guess is that there isn't or else someone would have been done it already. I am just wondering how many people out there have the equipment but just don't shoot that class at major matches (for one reason or another)?

Also kind of like the idea of just one round on paper with HM/HMO scoring wise (goes back to the first sentence above).....feasible?

50 cents a round, that's what it costs me to load 308. (223 costs me 25 cents a round) Yep, it costs more, but double 223 costs isn't really all that much. I do most of my rifle practice with a 10/22 with iron sights; a 2 inch spinner at 50 yards is quits a challenge. Yea, its not the 308, but I use it for basic rifle skills. then I will go to the range with my 308 before a big match and shoot 200 rounds or so. so using an alternate like the 10/22 does keep the costs down.

Heavy Optic is the bane of my life right now. For the life of me I just cannot wrap my head around why people want to go @#$%ing HeMan with this lesser divison. using an auto loader shotgun or anything less than a 45 pistol is NOT HeMan, and it shouldn't be called Heavy anything! I shudder to think of Eddie rolling over in his grave when seeing this weak-@$$ divison being shot at matches... 9mm makes you weak!

Running fast and shooting mouse guns is all well and good and takes a totally different skill set than HeMan. Managing 308 recoil for follow-up shots, hitting those itty bitty targets with iron sights, and everything else with the HeMan Iron rifle is a joy to learn and get good at. The pump 12guage is also a totally different skill set, aquire target, shoot, pump, aquire target, etc adds one more step in the process. slows you down? sure does, so??? (well, some of us anyway, reference to PK's amazing pump shotgun abilities) everybody in the divison has to do it. And then there is the 10 round 45 pistol. You have to make every shot count, and plan your reloads carefully. The skill set for HeMan is so much more and is not for everyone. But it is the most fun I have had with 3 gun, and I used to shoot open... I would really hate to see HeMan change...Leave it alone. Can you MAN up to it???

jj

Edited September 25, 2011 by RiggerJJ

[Chills1994]

slight thread drift ahead....

with respect to reloading costs for .308...

I wish Montana Gold would make a .308 counterpart to their 55grain FMJ .223 bullet.