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Single Stack Classic Caliber Choice


Chuck D

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If you were building a new gun for the Single Stack Classic match what would be your caliber of choice, 40 or 45? The dillema for me is with match legal magazines the 40 only holds 1 more round than the 45. Is that extra round THAT important?

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I know Robbie thinks so. One of the reasons is that they always seem to have one really silly stage, usually all steel, where it is actually an advantage. When he tells me about such-and-such stage every year - I just don't get it. It's the single stack classic, for crying out loud.

be

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I haven't been, so I'm just askin' here, but if one extra round is so important, wouldn't a Super work?  Or is the Major/Minor scoring difference still insurmountable?

And a 6" Limited 10 gun?  Who allowed that?  somedays I wonder who is in charge.

(Edited by Patrick Sweeney at 10:47 am on July 19, 2001)

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No box rule in U.S., and Springfield makes it as a regular production gun. I talked with Robbie and He is of the opinion that in order to qualify (by amount produced) the gun must be a regular sales item not a batch of "completed" guns that are never really sold. So he was well within the rules to shoot it.

Pat

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Patrick,

It is a major/minor thing. In super, at the single stack classic, you'd be minor. And not even Robbie would want to shoot minor. Although, depending on who shows up, he probably could win with.

be

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I think that we ought to have a new Single Stack classic rule, especially for the Rio Salado Single Stack classic, that Robbie always shoots minor, regardless of whatever he is shooting- 9mm to .454 Casull.

Seriously though, that extra round can really matter especially when shooting steel.  I have never shot the official Single Stack Classic but I have shot the Rio Salado Single Stack "Classics."  (2d place to guess who!)  In the courses of fire that Rio had, an extra round could really be important.  There is certainly no disadvantage to shooting a .40 so why would you want to build .45 for the Single Stack Classic???  

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Kellyn,

Sounds like the Miculek Rule at Second Chance.  We kept agitating Richard to make Jerry shoot all the events with a pair of five-shot snubbies.  Wiser heads prevailed when it was pointed out that while it was embarassing to always lose to Jerry, to lose to him while he was wielding a pair of M-36's would be unmanly in the extreme.

Be careful what you wish for.

And don't get me started on the making .38 Super shoot Minor rule.  In another generation of powder development, it will be a moot issue anyway.

(Edited by Patrick Sweeney at 8:10 am on July 20, 2001)

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Patrick,

That's good advice. Better to be beat under the current rules!

I'll get you started on the .38 Super shooting minor rule :-)  Do think Super's/supercomps/9X23s should be major in Limited or the Single Stack Classic?

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Chriss,

I think the problem is that many equate minimum PF for a defensive round to be in direct relationship with the bullet diameter. I've read several studies that state that the 9mm +P+ is a very effective round, however, it is what I have read (only).

The other problem that I could forsee is that if you don't have some sort of caliber restriction, it will (the caliber war), knowing competitors, eventually get out of control. This is because it is always going to  be easier to make a gun with a smaller bullet diameter easier to shoot. This is strictly due to the surface area of the circumfrence of the bullet's ability to "torque" the barrel/gun when the bullet is cranking down the barrel. The exact same PF in 9mm is going to be easier to shoot than the same bullet weight and the same PF in a .40. If you think about this, it's not difficult to see where it would lead. Eventually someone would be out there with a 9mm necked down to .17 caliber....

You know, maybe that's not a bad idea. But to keep any sort of realistic relationship between what is atually being used and what is being experimented with in competition, this may be necessary.

be

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Pete Diaz recently asked me the exact same question via e-mail, so I thought I might as well post my reply to him here. Why reinvent the wheel?

"No, I don't think .40 would be a better choice in a 1911 single-stack. While in Limited I think the .40 is better, in Limited-10, on balance, I consider the .45 the superior choice.

If the only concern in choosing a Limited-10 caliber was "shootability," then picking the .40 would be a no-brainer. However, other factors come into play. The .45 has a couple of things going for it that the .40 does not. It's a low pressure cartridge, thus doesn't wear out its brass as fast. Compared to the high-intensity .40 it gives you much more of a safety margin pressure-wise. Those are good things, but still not the clincher.

In Limited (not Limited-10) you can get more rounds in a double-stack .40 mag than you can in a double-stack .45, so in addition to its greater controllability the .40 also has the capacity advantage. But in a single-stack, amazingly enough, the capacity advantage goes to the .45. Because the .45 has something going for it that the .40 does not: readily available sources of reliable 10-shot magazines.

Your classic magazine capacity for a .45 single-stack is 7 rounds. With a round in the chamber you've got an 8-shot gun; that translates into four double taps if you fire the gun to slide lock, then when you reload with a fresh magazine you've only got three DTs on tap. If you don't want to shoot to slide-lock (and you don't) a 7-round mag only allows you to engage three targets before you have to reload. With the readily available, reliable 8-shot mags for the .45, OTOH, you've got four DTs on tap, you can keep the slide forward on the last round for the fastest possible reload, AND when you reload with a fresh 8-rounder you're now back to 9 rounds in the gun, four DTs and a fast slide-forward reload.

Now let's consider the 10-round .45 single-stacks. That gives you five DTs, the slide stays forward on the last round for a slide-forward reload, slap in a fresh mag and you've got another five DTs. MAJOR advantage.

There are no factory production 10-shot .40 S&W 1911 single-stack magazines being manufactured that I'm aware of. Standard magazine capacity for a normal length 1911 mag in .40 is eight rounds. Wilson at one time made a really neat standard length 9-rounder but that's been discontinued for quite awhile. However, even with the 9-round .40 mag, one in the chamber for a 10-round gun, you can still only do four DTs if you don't want to run the gun to slide-lock. If you do five DTs to slide-lock (and I'm assuming you've got some of the rare 9-shot .40 S&W mags) after you reload you're back down to four DTs. You can get that in .45 with an 8-shot mag, and it's one less than you can have with a 10-shot .45 mag. I know some people have taken the 10-shot .45 mags and pinched the feed lips to work with .40, for a 10-shot single-stack .40 magazine. However these Rube Goldberg contraptions don't give you the easily available, consistent and dependable reliability you get from, say, a Wilson 10-shot .45 mag.

All of which is my way of saying that while I think there is a major advantage in a 1911 single-stack to having an 8-round magazine instead of a seven, and a major advantage to having a 10-round magazine instead of a nine....there's really no advantage to having a 9-shot magazine instead of an eight. So go for the 10-shot mags in .45. If you find the long 10-shotters a bit awkward for the fastest reloads, then you have the option of using standard length 8-shot mags which do tend to handle a bit more smoothly, and there are a whole bunch of 'em out there for you to choose from.

Hope that answered the question in some sort of vaguely comprehensible fashion."

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Chip McCormack makes 9rd 10mm mags.  Believe it or not you can take a 10 round 45. mag, tighten the feedlips and make it into an 11 rd 40..   I own a 45. Kimber and I have no desire to buy another single stack, therefore 45. it is.  I agree with Duane though on the 8rd or 9rd debate.  I would only think it would be an issue on steel.  

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BE,

with the 112 min. projectile weight it is going to be damn near impossible to go much smaller than the 9mm. A .223 bullet is long but only 40-69 grains. Try fitting that sucker in a handgun mag. I think with the new powders out you'll see 9mm legal in the next couple years for open.

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Yeah, I think the .40 cal minimum in Limited and Limited-10 is bogus, but I can understand why they do it. You've got to push a 9mm-sized bullet pretty hard to make Major, and a lot of the Limited/Limited-10 guns feature unsupported chambers. Before I get 10 posts from the advanced-level handloaders on the forum, I know it can be done. AAMOF if they allowed .355 caliber to make Major in Limited-10, I know what gun I'd be shooting (and carrying): a 5" chambered for 9x23 Winchester. I really like that caliber a lot. Okay, so it recoils more heavily than a .45 in an uncomped gun. Big frickin' deal.

On the positive side, I've got six of the old standard length single-stack Wilson 10-shot .38 Super mags (now sadly discontinued) that work perfeclty with 9x23. We're talking a "normal" length mag that handles and reloads faster and more easily than the 10-round "skinny sticks" in .45, and still carries the max allowable load of 10 rounds. And from the standpoint of self-defense, I'll bet my life on a 9x23 125-gr. Silvertip stepping out at around 1,450 fps or a bit less out of a 5" barrel, over any .45 ACP round on Earth. However, as things stand now, I like firing my carry gun in IPSC and IDPA, and in IPSC Limited/Limited-10 the .45 makes Major, the 9x23 doesn't, so that's what I carry and compete with.  

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I recently pitched an article to a magazine about what calibers actually make Major with .355" bullets, within accepted loading specs/over the counter ammo.  The editor liked it, but the subject is too sensitive right now.

Advances in powder will make it possible to load a SAAMI spec major 38 Super real soon, and a SAAMI spec 9x19 in the near future.

So, a guy buys his ammo at the gun shop, runs it over the match chrono through his box-stock gun, and the numbers say he shoots Major.  Why can't he declare Major regardless of the bullet diameter?

Hell, why not let some poor sod in another country shoot Minor with a .30 Luger?  If that's all his "Minister of Sport" will let him have, what's the problem?

But I'm a known trouble maker.

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I carry the Winchester 127gr +p+ in a glock 26 and thats all the recoil I want in a little gun.  The bullet ranks right up there with the 45.'s on the Marshall/(can't remember his partner's name) tests and has less recoil than the 45.  It also holds more bullets.  Duane I believe a few years ago you wrote a book about bullets that said a good 9mm is just fine and that the 45. FMJ was not the end all(miffing at least one "combat expert").  On the 40./10mm minimum dia. for major, could you imagine the bitching from guys who well cry equipment race if 9mm is allowed.

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Simple solution: the sole advantage for .38 super Major in Limited is capacity.  Restrict .38 super (and others) Major in Limited to 126mm magazines.  Yes, yes, I know, why should we add yet another magazine length to the panoply?  Because we shouldn't have allowed it to get started in the first place.

Hold the ammo consumption down, and let the competitors sort out which caliber works.

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Patrick,

Because USPSA can't control all the marginally talented reloaders out there, and they're worried about people blowing up their guns when loading cartridges so close to the edge. Yes, a new generation of powders may solve that problem. But will everyone be smart enough to use only those powders and the Ka-Boom stuff?

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No, limit the Limited guns (hi-cap mags) not Limited 10.  As for the marginal reloaders out there, they're already capable of whipping up loads in their Supers, they're just feeding them to Open guns instead of Limited guns.

If the problem really was one that had to be solved, USPSA would get together with SAAMI and spec out a cartridge (perhaps the 9x23) and then say "Limited gun factory-made in this caliber, and this caliber only."  Let those who think it is an advantage get the hardware that way and stop whining.

The question is, is it an advantage?  Running a .45, .40 and .38 Super, capacity aside, at Major, is there an advantage (real, not some imagined leg up) in one caliber over another?

The supposed equipment expense is not the problem.  Cost out a blown engine for a dirt bike.  More than an Open gun.  The problem is advancing technology, and the perceived need to keep up.

We can either draw a line, and say "beyond this you may not go" or we can simply say "artificial advantages won't be allowed (magazine capacity) but advantages that fall in the realm of physics will be allowed.  Again, is caliber an actual advantage?

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Do the math.  compare the area available for a 9mm to score an "A" hit vs. the area availalbe for a .45.  Does it come out more than a few percentage points larger?

Is the larger area for the .45 offset by the greater recoil?   The big advantage is the disparity in scoring in the B, C and D rings for Minor.  Is a .45 actually that much more effective with peripheral hits?  (Twice as good?  Half again as good?  Ten percent better?)

With a smaller disparity in B,C and D hits, the 9mm (Minor)would be a more viable selection.

Since the difference is carved in stone by Jeff Cooper himself, I don't see it changing.

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