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Unloaded gun and start mag on barrel


spanky

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Why do these crazy things come up when I'm around?

Start Position: "Standing behind either barrel in surrender position. Empty handgun and start mag placed on barrel."

Stage Procedure: Upon signal, engage targets as visible from within the fault lines".

What compels me to use the mag that is on the barrel?

Can I compel the shooter to use the start mag? Is it simply "On signal load gun with mag on barrel and..." or "On signal attempt to load gun using mag on barrel..." etc?

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Thats why you usually see, Empty gun and all mags used in COF on barrel. Or simply unloaded gun on barrel. Attempt to load would still be vague, as how much efforts constitutes attempt ?

I can just see, "well on the way to the barrel I attempted to use my Jedi mind powers to load the mag into the gun but it didnt work so I grabbed this one off my belt."

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The problem with forcing the shooter ot use that mag (specifically in this case) is that it could potentially cause a safety nightmare if the mag slides off of the barrel and becomes inaccessible to the shooter.

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Start Position: "Standing behind either barrel in surrender position. Empty handgun and start mag placed on barrel."

Stage Procedure: Upon signal, engage targets as visible from within the fault lines".

What compels me to use the mag that is on the barrel?

Can I compel the shooter to use the start mag? Is it simply "On signal load gun with mag on barrel and..." or "On signal attempt to load gun using mag on barrel..." etc?

Spanky...What compels? Start position says empty handgun and "start" mag on barrel. Vaguely states the mag to be used, but still hazy.

I think the stage position and procedure should clearly define what loading device should be used initially...

START POSITION: Standing behind either barrel in surrender position, empty handgun and initial loading device (magazine/speed loader) on barrel.

PROCEDURE: Upon signal, retrieve handgun and load with the initial loading device (magazine/speed loader) from barrel, then engage targets as they become available from within the fault lines. One procedural for not using the initial loading from the barrel. Additional loading devices may come from the belt.

IMO

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The problem with forcing the shooter ot use that mag (specifically in this case) is that it could potentially cause a safety nightmare if the mag slides off of the barrel and becomes inaccessible to the shooter.

Turn the barrel right side up so the lip holds the mag from sliding off. Or modify the barrel with some type of higher limiting device...or box screwed to the top of the barrel.

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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I always put an extra mag on the table just in case.

But if the WSB stipulates that "the start mag on the table" and you put two mags on the table, aren't you now going against 5.2.4:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

The mag that you leave behind is "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading device", and it is not "carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt".

Yes, I know that 5.5.2 lets you drop magazines (after the start signal), but don't you have to at least been carrying it or have picked it up to have dropped it?

Edited by Skydiver
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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I feel that you can go on the next mag. You attempted to load/reload with that magazine, but lost it.

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On the same stage, it was not stated that the slide had to be closed and hammer down. Could one start with the slide locked back?

No. 8.1.3.

Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing.

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On the same stage, it was not stated that the slide had to be closed and hammer down. Could one start with the slide locked back?

Depends on how you read/interpret 8.1.3:

8.1.3 Courses of fire may require ready conditions which are different to those stated above. In such cases, the required ready condition must be clearly stated in the written stage briefing. When a Handgun Ready Condition requires a handgun be prepared with an empty chamber (or cylinder), the slide of the handgun must be fully forward (or the cylinder must be fully closed) and the hammer or striker must be fully down or fully forward, as the case may be, unless otherwise specified in the stage briefing.

If you put emphasis on the blue sentence, then it sounds like you are free to do so if the WSB didn't stipulate closed and hammer down.

On the other hand, if you put emphasis on the green sentence, then all the WSB needed to state is empty chamber, and the rule takes care of everything. (This is just like how the default body position is standing with hands at sides in not otherwise stated.)

Personally, I interpret 8.1.3 as one whole piece with the emphasis on the green sentence. A WSB needs to clearly state that it's an unloaded gun start with an empty chamber.

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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I always put an extra mag on the table just in case.

But if the WSB stipulates that "the start mag on the table" and you put two mags on the table, aren't you now going against 5.2.4:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

The mag that you leave behind is "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading device", and it is not "carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt".

Yes, I know that 5.5.2 lets you drop magazines (after the start signal), but don't you have to at least been carrying it or have picked it up to have dropped it?

If I never go back for the other mag on the table, it's not ammo I'm using on that stage. It's no different from the mags and ammo in my range bag. We wouldn't take 5.2.4 to mean that I can't have ammo or loaded mags in my bag or on a table outside the COF, would we?

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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I feel that you can go on the next mag. You attempted to load/reload with that magazine, but lost it.

I'll disagree slightly. You were supposed to load with a specified magazine, and you failed to do so... as DNROI pointed out, all you have to do is insert the magazine it doesn't have to go in fully. Pick the mag up slide it half way up the tube drop it and load from your belt if you are worried about mud and dirt. You still need to load with THAT magazine, as the WSB states... just because you dropped it shouldn't negate the requirement. Just how I sees it.

Edited by aztecdriver
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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I feel that you can go on the next mag. You attempted to load/reload with that magazine, but lost it.

I'll disagree slightly. You were supposed to load with a specified magazine, and you failed to do so... as DNROI pointed out, all you have to do is insert the magazine it doesn't have to go in fully. Pick the mag up slide it half way up the tube drop it and load from your belt if you are worried about mud and dirt. You still need to load with THAT magazine, as the WSB states... just because you dropped it shouldn't negate the requirement. Just how I sees it.

Oooh! Interesting point. If in a WSB, I can stipulate that the first mag/loading device must come from the table, does it follow that I can stipulate the the last mag must come from the table? And if they lose/fumble that mag, they still have to use it.

I can see an evil stage now. T1-T3 setup 25ft downrange from a table. Behind the table is Box A. Start position: Facing directly uprange, toes against rear of box. Handgun loaded and holstered. Last reloading device to be used on the X on the table. Procedure: At start signal, engage targets with 2 rounds each from within Box A only. Scoring: Virginia Count. devil.gif

Edited by Skydiver
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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I always put an extra mag on the table just in case.

But if the WSB stipulates that "the start mag on the table" and you put two mags on the table, aren't you now going against 5.2.4:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

The mag that you leave behind is "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading device", and it is not "carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt".

Yes, I know that 5.5.2 lets you drop magazines (after the start signal), but don't you have to at least been carrying it or have picked it up to have dropped it?

If I never go back for the other mag on the table, it's not ammo I'm using on that stage. It's no different from the mags and ammo in my range bag. We wouldn't take 5.2.4 to mean that I can't have ammo or loaded mags in my bag or on a table outside the COF, would we?

Good point! So as long as I never go back for that second mag on the table, all would be good. But if I have a jam and drop the first mag and go for that one, then I'll probably in trouble.

Good suggestion. I think I'll start leaving a second mag on the table/barrel as well.

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What if I fumble my re-load? Do I have to pick that mag up out of the mud/sand to avoid a procedural penalty?

I always put an extra mag on the table just in case.

But if the WSB stipulates that "the start mag on the table" and you put two mags on the table, aren't you now going against 5.2.4:

5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the start signal, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. ...

The mag that you leave behind is "spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading device", and it is not "carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt".

Yes, I know that 5.5.2 lets you drop magazines (after the start signal), but don't you have to at least been carrying it or have picked it up to have dropped it?

If I never go back for the other mag on the table, it's not ammo I'm using on that stage. It's no different from the mags and ammo in my range bag. We wouldn't take 5.2.4 to mean that I can't have ammo or loaded mags in my bag or on a table outside the COF, would we?

Good point! So as long as I never go back for that second mag on the table, all would be good. But if I have a jam and drop the first mag and go for that one, then I'll probably in trouble.

Good suggestion. I think I'll start leaving a second mag on the table/barrel as well.

The more I've thought about it, I think I am violating 5.2.4. If I fumble the load and go back to the ammo on the barrel, I've just picked up illegally stashed ammo. Probably best to just not fumble the initial load and get on with the stage!

BB

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