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Issue with "opinions" in front sight


spanky

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It was two questions sent in by one person. both of these questions come from a match that I help run and I actually brought up these questions to the submitter who has been around for quite a while so I am intimately familiar with the scenarios. In fact, I was the shooter in the first question. I don't have mine yet so I can't post a picture but it's on page ~74.

1) shooter leaves the shooting area. standing outside the shooting area, shooter jumps in the air and fires a shot. JA says procedural should be assessed and he specifically says that one you are out you have to re-establish "in" before you fire a shot.

My problem: There is NO rule that supports this. There is only a definition of "out" which says you cannot gain support by touching outside while a shot is fired. I do not feel you could argue that you are gaining support while the shot is fired when you are in mid air.

I am aware the former is beating a dead horse as it has been discussed here many, many times. Just wanted to throw it out one more time since it has been published for all to see...

2) stage is Engage T1-T3 with 2 ea, perform a mandatory reload, engage PP1-PP4. JA says that you should only be given 4 procedurals and he cites 10.2.3 which states "Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor." Emphasis mine.

Yes. 10.2.3 says that you can only get the number of penalties for the available shots but the rule also says "in the ABOVE cases" and the applicable rule is BELOW this rule...

10.2.4 - A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the

reload was required until a reload is performed.

Now I leave the "input" for you.

Edited by spanky
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There are no rulings in Front Sight. Just like there are none here.

The process is to follow the latest rule book, and the Official rules that are posted on the website. If there us a difference of opinion, use the appeal process that is spelled out in the rule book.

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OK guys ... Generally speaking, I'll choose to rely on Mr Amidon's opinion as expressed in Front Sight far more often than will I rely on the position of Range Lawyers on the forum.

Spanky ... Consider the following:

1 - I didn't see it, but I'll almost bet the WSB said something like ... "On the start signal, engage targets from within the fault lines." (or words to that effect ... Am I right?)

2 - The last place you were before you jumped in the air was OUTSIDE the fault lines ... Correct?

3 - How can you possibly consider that jumping in the air (unless, of course, you then immediately landed inside the fault lines) would somehow place you in complience with the WSB ... "engage targets from within the fault lines"?

You are no more inside the fault lines than a shooter who starts from outside the fault lines and does not step in before he shoots. Hence, violation of the WSB, if nothing else.

This reminds me of a shooter, who upon being informed he was DQ'd under 10.4.2 as he shot himself in the foot on the draw claimed the rule did not apply. After all, the round struck his foot, not the ground. He felt sweeping his foot was allowed under 10.5.5.1 and that since all targets and props were impenetrable (9.1.5) the round which passed through his foot could not, by rule, have struck the ground!

Sorry for being cynical, but John's opinion in FS actually makes sense ... If not for the reasons he gave in the article, then at least for a failure to follow the WSB.

Edited by Schutzenmeister
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...2) stage is Engage T1-T3 with 2 ea, perform a mandatory reload, engage PP1-PP4. JA says that you should only be given 4 procedurals...

That is not what he says.

Edited by wide45
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...2) stage is Engage T1-T3 with 2 ea, perform a mandatory reload, engage PP1-PP4. JA says that you should only be given 4 procedurals...

That is not what he says.

Actually, what he said was the stage was illegal so it doesn't matter. but then he refers to 10.2.3 which begins "Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases..." The penalty for failure to perform a mandatory reload is per shot fired and FOLLOWs immediately after 10.2.3, and is located in 10.2.4. I've got an issue with that, as if it were to apply universally to all multiply earned penalties - 10.2.3 should state "Where multiple penalties are assessed..." and eliminate "in the above cases" part.

I believe, also, the question from the submitter to John improperly used the term "Standards Course", which I am, at times, apt to do myself. It clearly doesn't fit the terms of standards from the get go because there is not more than one string of fire... but it could fit more legally as a speed shoot. (1.2.2.3), so while I think the question threw the answer a bit - I do believe the problem is legitimate as it's possible to have a mandatory reload missed and shots fired at steel that miss, in some sort of course of fire. I would like further clarification as to why 10.2.3 applies to 10.2.4 when it clearly states the "above cases" referring to 10.2.1 (faulting) and 10.2.2 (failing to follow the wsb)

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...2) stage is Engage T1-T3 with 2 ea, perform a mandatory reload, engage PP1-PP4. JA says that you should only be given 4 procedurals...

That is not what he says.

You're right. He refers to 10.2.3 when he should have referred to 10.2.4 which is the applicable rule.
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Sorry for being cynical, but John's opinion in FS actually makes sense ... If not for the reasons he gave in the article, then at least for a failure to follow the WSB.

Probably so. That's about as close as I can get to being able to give procedurals for this. However, there is no definition of within except simply not touching outside.

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