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Unsafe gun/ broken gun

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Nik Habicht brought up a thought in the thread "Hypothetical Question" about there not being an exemption for having your finger off the trigger when the gun discharges. It would still be a DQ under:

10.4.4 A shot which occurs during remedial action in the case of a malfunction.

My question would be why would it be a DQ under 10.4.4 when you could use:

5.1.6 Handguns must be serviceable and safe. Range Officers may demand

examination of a competitor’s handgun or related equipment, at any time,

to check they are functioning safely. If any such item is declared unserviceable

or unsafe by a Range Officer, it must be withdrawn from the

match until the item is repaired to the satisfaction of the Range Master.

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5.1.6 just removes the handgun until repaired. A backup gun can be deployed. The competitor is not removed under 5.1.6. The problem is that a shot fired during remediation of a broken gun is still a DQ. You don't get relief under 5.1.6 after the shot is fired. That help?

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Not really. The example I would give is similar to the one posted by Kevin Sanders about the hammer following when the shooter works the slide, or even one where the shooter comes to the line and at "Make Ready" the hammer follows and the gun discharges. As long as the shooter has the gun pointed in a safe direction I tend to see it as a broken gun that needs to be fixed and not an unsafe act by the shooter. I do not know of anyone that would intentionally bring a broken gun to the line.

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10.4 Match Disqualification – Accidental Discharge

A competitor who causes an accidental discharge must be stopped by a Range

Officer as soon as possible. An accidental discharge is defined as follows:

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Mike

A couple of iterations or so ago on the rule book and there USED to be an escape clause for a broken gun under certain circumstances. Frankly, it was being abused and the BoD removed it from the rules. Still, even with the Broken gun clause you would be DQ'd if the round went in an unsafe direction, you broke the 180 in the process, etc. as these were NOT broken gun issues.

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Thanks Mike. I could understand the DQ's that went in unsafe directions but was having a tough time reconciling the broken gun part of it being as the intro says "A competitor who causes"

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

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Just had a guy smack the back of his slide when it failed to go to battery... Shot went into the backstop, but still had to put the gun away for the night.

10.4.4

Edited by JThompson

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

Right - but as you correctly gave examples of - it's only DQ'able if the AD rules are hit... (10 ft, during reload, during Make Ready and before buzzer, etc.) If a shot happens because of a broken gun (typically a double or what have you) that are safe direction, at a target, while engaging, they are still in the match. I wanted that to be absolutely clear so that someone doesn't come along, read this, and head out to the range "hey, you're gun doubled, you're DQ'd"... Good stuff...

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

Right - but as you correctly gave examples of - it's only DQ'able if the AD rules are hit... (10 ft, during reload, during Make Ready and before buzzer, etc.) If a shot happens because of a broken gun (typically a double or what have you) that are safe direction, at a target, while engaging, they are still in the match. I wanted that to be absolutely clear so that someone doesn't come along, read this, and head out to the range "hey, you're gun doubled, you're DQ'd"... Good stuff...

Spot on, Aztec ... But, remember!

A good and alert RO should notice if your gun starts doubling and particularly tripling ... more so if it happens more than once. There is a good chance the RO MAY stop you and call the RM to have your gun inspected for safety. No DQ ... But if the gun proves to be malfunctioning, the stage is scored to the point where the RO stopped you (to include misses and FTEs.) If there is no malfunction, you get a reshoot. (5.7.7, et seq.)

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

Right - but as you correctly gave examples of - it's only DQ'able if the AD rules are hit... (10 ft, during reload, during Make Ready and before buzzer, etc.) If a shot happens because of a broken gun (typically a double or what have you) that are safe direction, at a target, while engaging, they are still in the match. I wanted that to be absolutely clear so that someone doesn't come along, read this, and head out to the range "hey, you're gun doubled, you're DQ'd"... Good stuff...

Spot on, Aztec ... But, remember!

A good and alert RO should notice if your gun starts doubling and particularly tripling ... more so if it happens more than once. There is a good chance the RO MAY stop you and call the RM to have your gun inspected for safety. No DQ ... But if the gun proves to be malfunctioning, the stage is scored to the point where the RO stopped you (to include misses and FTEs.) If there is no malfunction, you get a reshoot. (5.7.7, et seq.)

I wish i would have been more up to date on this ruling. At my last match my gun seemed to be doubling but all my hits were 2A's, i was clearly aiming and getting my hits, after that stage the RM went to the safe area with me to check the gun, it was all functioning correctly and safe. In between the nest stage the RM had me go down to the berm and test fire the gun, i emptied a 20rd mag as fast as i could no issues. Next stage I was rocking and rolling getting my hits when i got DQ'D for am unsafe gun. Still cant find anything wrong with the gun.

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

Right - but as you correctly gave examples of - it's only DQ'able if the AD rules are hit... (10 ft, during reload, during Make Ready and before buzzer, etc.) If a shot happens because of a broken gun (typically a double or what have you) that are safe direction, at a target, while engaging, they are still in the match. I wanted that to be absolutely clear so that someone doesn't come along, read this, and head out to the range "hey, you're gun doubled, you're DQ'd"... Good stuff...

Spot on, Aztec ... But, remember!

A good and alert RO should notice if your gun starts doubling and particularly tripling ... more so if it happens more than once. There is a good chance the RO MAY stop you and call the RM to have your gun inspected for safety. No DQ ... But if the gun proves to be malfunctioning, the stage is scored to the point where the RO stopped you (to include misses and FTEs.) If there is no malfunction, you get a reshoot. (5.7.7, et seq.)

I wish i would have been more up to date on this ruling. At my last match my gun seemed to be doubling but all my hits were 2A's, i was clearly aiming and getting my hits, after that stage the RM went to the safe area with me to check the gun, it was all functioning correctly and safe. In between the nest stage the RM had me go down to the berm and test fire the gun, i emptied a 20rd mag as fast as i could no issues. Next stage I was rocking and rolling getting my hits when i got DQ'D for am unsafe gun. Still cant find anything wrong with the gun.

Which rule was cited for the DQ?

I can see 5.1.6 which requires that the gun be withdrawn, but doesn't necessarily DQ you. You just need to go through the same thing that you did previously which was "repair" the gun to the satisfaction of the RM. That continue the match with a backup gun.

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The RO stopped me and said that is not safe, without having the gun checked again. I did not no the rule on this well enough to challenge the RO at the time. That was a bummer it was my first limited match and i was kicking ass.

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Had this happen to me at an Area match years ago under the old rules. Gun fired finger not on trigger went into battery and fired again both rounds striking the back berm. The Range Master went with me to one of the gunsmiths on the premises, he inspected gun and found the problem to be loose grip screws. Result DQ. Under the old rule had a part broken in the gun during the course of fire I would have been scored on the stage to the point where I was stopped had the gun repaired or replaced and continued the match.

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The RO stopped me and said that is not safe, without having the gun checked again. I did not no the rule on this well enough to challenge the RO at the time. That was a bummer it was my first limited match and i was kicking ass.

YOU do not necessarily need to know the rule well enough to challenge the RO ... Just question the DQ and get the RM to explain why you are being DQ'd. It's no extra effort to call the RM for your DQ. By rule (7.1.6) all DQ's must be brought to his attention anyway. By the description you have given, I see NO supportable reason for a DQ.

Had this happen to me at an Area match years ago under the old rules. Gun fired finger not on trigger went into battery and fired again both rounds striking the back berm. The Range Master went with me to one of the gunsmiths on the premises, he inspected gun and found the problem to be loose grip screws. Result DQ. Under the old rule had a part broken in the gun during the course of fire I would have been scored on the stage to the point where I was stopped had the gun repaired or replaced and continued the match.

As above ... Under just WHAT rule was a DQ issued? I've been around this game for more than a day and I cannot recall any rule within the last 20 years that would support a DQ as you describe here.

Folks: Know the rules and know your appeals rights. Keep a copy of the rule book handy and READ it - sometime, please! ROs who issue DQs as described here are either not certified or simply not up to speed! Don't be a prick about it, but DO require that the RO be able to specify exactly WHICH rule he is DQ'ing you under, then READ it to see if it fits. If not, APPEAL IT!

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The RO stopped me and said that is not safe, without having the gun checked again. I did not no the rule on this well enough to challenge the RO at the time. That was a bummer it was my first limited match and i was kicking ass.

YOU do not necessarily need to know the rule well enough to challenge the RO ... Just question the DQ and get the RM to explain why you are being DQ'd. It's no extra effort to call the RM for your DQ. By rule (7.1.6) all DQ's must be brought to his attention anyway. By the description you have given, I see NO supportable reason for a DQ.

Had this happen to me at an Area match years ago under the old rules. Gun fired finger not on trigger went into battery and fired again both rounds striking the back berm. The Range Master went with me to one of the gunsmiths on the premises, he inspected gun and found the problem to be loose grip screws. Result DQ. Under the old rule had a part broken in the gun during the course of fire I would have been scored on the stage to the point where I was stopped had the gun repaired or replaced and continued the match.

As above ... Under just WHAT rule was a DQ issued? I've been around this game for more than a day and I cannot recall any rule within the last 20 years that would support a DQ as you describe here.

Folks: Know the rules and know your appeals rights. Keep a copy of the rule book handy and READ it - sometime, please! ROs who issue DQs as described here are either not certified or simply not up to speed! Don't be a prick about it, but DO require that the RO be able to specify exactly WHICH rule he is DQ'ing you under, then READ it to see if it fits. If not, APPEAL IT!

Mike has it right. Simply ask politely what rule was used since rule 10.3.2 requires the reason for the DQ to be recorded:

10.3.2 When a match disqualification is issued, the Range Officer must record the reasons for the disqualification, and the time and date of the incident, on the competitor’s score sheet, and the Range Master must be notified as soon as possible.

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That I understand. Sometimes that stuff happens during a match. I was just trying to educate myself on broken guns that discharge compared to failing to fire. I have seen several that broke and became nonfunctional never one that broke the other way.

Mike

Most common situation when that happens is a hammer that follows causing the gun to double or even go full auto ... It can also fire on loading/reloading.

I've generally only seen it on guns where folks have been trying to lighten the triggers to very low pressures and then they just don't hold any more. It's less common to see a part actually break from normal (non-modified) wear and tear.

So as Gary said ...

It is their gun, they are responsible for all aspects of it.

How do you get DQ'ed after the RM checks the gun twice. Seems to me that after the first check and the finding that the gun was OK there shouldn't have been a DQ especially after the second check.

Seen a few guns right on that border where a loose grip could cause a double or even a triple. This is an act where the finger is on the trigger during target engagement so 5.1.6 comes into play. Did not realize a broken gun was DQable. Learned something new.

Right - but as you correctly gave examples of - it's only DQ'able if the AD rules are hit... (10 ft, during reload, during Make Ready and before buzzer, etc.) If a shot happens because of a broken gun (typically a double or what have you) that are safe direction, at a target, while engaging, they are still in the match. I wanted that to be absolutely clear so that someone doesn't come along, read this, and head out to the range "hey, you're gun doubled, you're DQ'd"... Good stuff...

Spot on, Aztec ... But, remember!

A good and alert RO should notice if your gun starts doubling and particularly tripling ... more so if it happens more than once. There is a good chance the RO MAY stop you and call the RM to have your gun inspected for safety. No DQ ... But if the gun proves to be malfunctioning, the stage is scored to the point where the RO stopped you (to include misses and FTEs.) If there is no malfunction, you get a reshoot. (5.7.7, et seq.)

I wish i would have been more up to date on this ruling. At my last match my gun seemed to be doubling but all my hits were 2A's, i was clearly aiming and getting my hits, after that stage the RM went to the safe area with me to check the gun, it was all functioning correctly and safe. In between the nest stage the RM had me go down to the berm and test fire the gun, i emptied a 20rd mag as fast as i could no issues. Next stage I was rocking and rolling getting my hits when i got DQ'D for am unsafe gun. Still cant find anything wrong with the gun.

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