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ICORE Capacities and .22's


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  • 4 weeks later...

I hate to disagree with my buddy Bones, but I think opening ICORE to .22 semi-autos - as side matches at the club level only, and scored separately from revos! - is an excellent idea to draw younger shooters into the action shooting sports. We do need to draw younger shooters (in case no one has taken a good look at the overall competitor field at their last match).

This allows that in an affordable manner, and they can learn shooting skills before they are able to move up to "real guns".... whether they are centrfire revolvers or semi-autos, and whether they are shooting USPSA, IDPA, or ICORE. I think it's a good concept, as long as it's a club level side match. I might even be tempted to drag one out myself just for grins & giggles. Where else can you race a .22 auto?

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GOF, if you've already said you want something that's a "club level side match" with separate scoring, why have any ICORE affiliation? If there are that many younger shooters waiting to get into action pistol at your club, that's great and it's a positive step for all of us. That having been said, you can take whatever targets you want, charge X amount of dollars per head, and let them use whatever firearm you want. Call it the Introduction to Action Shooting Match, or whatever you want. I don't see how ICORE has to be involved or why ICORE needs to be the entry level gateway.

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Dreaded 617 has been responsible for many lost souls into the depths of the revolver world, welcome in.

Yeah. Next purchase is a 686 or 686 pro.

I would recommend the 617 as a first gun if it weren't quite so expensive. I don't think anyone else makes a quality double action .22 really that's much cheaper than the 617.

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I certainly don't have a problem with .22 being shot in ICORE. I do have a big problem with autoloaders being used. Shoot the normal match stages with a .22 revolver and eliminate the need to set up a whole different set of stages. It is hard enough to find help setting up a normal match asking for people to set up two different matches is ridiculous.

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I don't see why two different stage set ups would have to be used. Just shoot the .22 autos on the same course, in a different scoring division. Same targets, pasters and scoring. With steel, it only has to be hit like Steel Challenge, and not required to go down.

The whole point is to increase the number of participants (especially juniors)... not to create admin difficulties.

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GOF, if you've already said you want something that's a "club level side match" with separate scoring, why have any ICORE affiliation? If there are that many younger shooters waiting to get into action pistol at your club, that's great and it's a positive step for all of us. That having been said, you can take whatever targets you want, charge X amount of dollars per head, and let them use whatever firearm you want. Call it the Introduction to Action Shooting Match, or whatever you want. I don't see how ICORE has to be involved or why ICORE needs to be the entry level gateway.

In my Florida area ICORE suffers from a lack of participation & availability. The closest club to me is 1.45 hours, the only other club I know about is 2.5 hours away. The first is lucky to get 20 shooters and the second (in Orlando, with a bigger population base) will run about 40.

Both of these ICORE matches (and this applies to any match... USPSA, Steel Challenge, and all but one IDPA match that I am aware of), rent space from established clubs. If they can't produce enough shooters to make it financially worthwhile for the club to turn over their facilities on a weekend, then the matches won't be held.

Allowing rimfire, and rimfire semi-autos is a way to build that shooter base to the point where it becomes financially feasible for a club to tell it's dues paying members "You can't use the range today because there is a match". I see this happen all over the state of FL... competitive shooters that attend these matches are disliked by the casual shooters and only tolerated by the Club BOD because they fill the club coffers. If the numbers are not there to fill those coffers the BOD will not allow the matches.

A second factor is that allowing rimfires will allow parents to bring (under supervision) their children... using whatever rimfires are available to shoot that inexpensive ammo...and this can bring new shooters into the sport.

As far as a 'rimfire division' adding extra workloads onto the match?... heck! ... there aren't many people shooting there anyway. At least this way you'd get some extra pasters, and maybe a little more help on the tear down. I've shot on ICORE squads that had 5 shooters... the RO, scorekeeper, and the shooter were the only ones pastinng & resetting because the other two were filling speed loaders. The street lights came on before we got done with six full ICORE stages and tore down.

More shooters is better all the way around and if rimfire brings them to ICORE I say... "Yes, let it happen." The 'hardcore' purists may complain long and loudly... but at least they'll have a match to shoot.

I remember Jaxshooter (who I know) asking on this forum is there was any interest in ICORE along Florida's First Coast (Jacksonville & St. Augustine) he got no reply other than mine. From where he lives, the closest ICORE match has to be 2.5 hours away, and Orlando in another 30-45 minutes further.

There are a number of ranges in Jax/St. Aug... I wonder if a rimfire division might provide enough shooters to rent space for matches, and he wouldn't have to drive so far?

Edited by GOF
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We've been allowing 22's and autos to shoot with us for about 9 months now. Mostly who we get are people new to shooting in general and those who cannot attend the USPSA match the next day. There has been no conflict between the groups and no problems from the few who use autos as they have to play by our rules or don't shoot with us.

We set up Sat. using mostly the same basic stages that will be used for USPSA on Sun. We alter the stage descriptions and arrays to suit ICORE rules. They rearrange for Sun. and do the tear down. Works for us.

Edited by NV Guide
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  • 3 weeks later...

I think it is great to use 22's to get new and youger people into action shooting, but I think we still need to keep ICORE to the revolvers. We run a match once a month that we call Action Rimfire, basically USPSA with ICORE scoring and since we have a ton a paper practice targets we use IDPA targets. The idea is simply to get experienced guys trigger time at a low cost and to bring new shooters out, and it seems to be working out great so far.

The down side I see to letting semi-autos into ICORE is that you are not grooming future ICORE members. I would bet 80-90 percent that start with autos stick with them as they get older. I love shooting my revolvers, but I cannot keep pace with my 617 compared to my High Standard. And when I want to go fast the High Standard is a lot more fun. But I shoot the revolver because I enjoy it better. If you introduce someone to a shooting sport with a semi-auto they are generally going to stay with the semi-auto because they see how fast guys can shoot with it. We can watch videos and at big matches watch the top revolver shooters and see how fast they really can go. But at a local ICORE match it is generally your average joe shooter. Watch a typical revolver shooter versus a typical open auto shooter and the open gun with 30 rounds looks a lot more fun because you just blaze away.

By growing a large semi-auto rimfire base you are not building a bigger base for ICORE, you are building a bigger rimfire base. Eventually they are going to decide they want more targets at a time and a different game and decide to just shoot 22's and exclude ICORE. While it is great for shooting sports in general, you are not going to gain much for ICORE by allowing semi-autos. While it is probably a stretch, it is not unrealsitic that in the future the semi-auto shooters are going to start protesting that they want their center-fire semi-autos. Their money is just as green as the next guys, and by allowing semi-autos it builds a larger membership for ICORE, even though they are not revolver shooters. Now that is a stretch at this point, but that is basically how different organizations break off and start on their own.

I think allowing rimfire in ICORE is the way to go. They are fun, they are cheap to shoot, they are easy for beginners. Heck, I am all for a chicken in every pot and a rimfire in every house. But our game was built for revolver shooters to compete and enjoy. Let's keep it to revolvers.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Leave ICORE revolvers only, otherwise it won't be ICORE. If you want to shoot a 22 auto fast, shoot steel challenge. I think if you start young shooters shooting revolvers they WILL become better shooters if they switch to semi-autos at a later date. I also think it is safer to start with a revolver. Pete

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In the last 3 years I organized the ICORE IPM in Italy, I offered the same course of fire also to pistol shooters; this allowed me to limit loss of money so I could afford to do it also the next year!

As a side positive effect was a, limited, conversion of pistol shooters into revolver shooters.

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  • 4 months later...

We have been shooting a Rimfire Division in our Clubs Defensive Pistol match for years. We are planing to shoot a non-sanctioned Rimfire Division in our Club ICORE Match. We did a test run shooting Rimfire on our first ICORE Match shooting the Big Boys course of fire Minus the Steel Stage. We set the match up with 5 Stages of D1 Targets, and all the Steel in Stage 6. Rimfire skipped shooting Stage 6. I have since talked with folks from two ICORE Clubs who shoot a Rimfire Division, how they handle steel is just to ding it for score. They manually operate reactive targets that rimfire will not activate.

We have 3 Rimfire Revolver shooters at the moment shooting our ICORE Match. I am running a 4" 617 Six Shooter, Andrew is running a 6" 617 Six Shooter, and Charles is running a 6" 17 Six Shooter. None of our Rimfire Revolver shooters have a 10 shot revolver. Andrew and I also have 22 LR Ruger LCR's which are 8 round.

Reloading a Rimfire Revolver in a Match is as simple as buying a few speed loaders. I have 10 HKS Speed Loaders for my 617. Carriers for Rimfire are more of a challenge to come up with. A simple Rule Fix by allowing pocket carried reloads in Rimfire will cure the problem of Rimfire Belt Carriers. We have the carrier problem solved at our Club, as I make Kydex Carriers. My J Frame Jet Loader Carrier with a Plastic Filler works fine.

Rimfire is fun, as well as economical. It is also low recoil for Youth and Lady shooters. You also skip about 150 more empty 38's to reload when you get home.

Bob

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  • 4 months later...

GOF, if you've already said you want something that's a "club level side match" with separate scoring, why have any ICORE affiliation? If there are that many younger shooters waiting to get into action pistol at your club, that's great and it's a positive step for all of us. That having been said, you can take whatever targets you want, charge X amount of dollars per head, and let them use whatever firearm you want. Call it the Introduction to Action Shooting Match, or whatever you want. I don't see how ICORE has to be involved or why ICORE needs to be the entry level gateway.

This is what we did at our small club in N.H. & it is working great. I agree with Bubba on allowing .22 revolvers for juniors to start out with. I think that would set the hook. Pete

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