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Correct call, "significaant advantage"?


waxman

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Learned something new at a local match last night, but need some clarification.

Shooter is shooting the classifier "Shoot, or get off the shot" The start position is seated at a table with both palms flat on table, pistol loaded and holstered. Shooter fires first string freestyle, 4 shots, no problem. Second string shooter leaves left hand flat on table, draws with right hand, and fires 4 shots. Since the shooter did not remove weak hand from table, he is awarded 4 procedurals, 1 for each shot fired. Ok, here is where I have the questions. The rule cited is 10.2.8.3, (When concearning WHO, and SHO) "Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to 'increase' stability while firing shots". Does a wobbly card table "increase stability" ? Most would assume the shooter just left the hand there to keep from accidently shooting freestyle. Ok second part of the question when it comes to penalties awarded. 4 procedurals were given, 1 per shot according to 10.2.1 The competitor will receive 1 per "occurance" unless there was a "significant advantage " gained . Was allowing the weak hand to rest flat on a wobbbly card table a "significant advantage? Just curious what you guys would have done in this situation.Thank you

Edited by waxman
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Is that table NOT considered an object wholly beyond, and not attached to the shooting area?

10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching

the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a

Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an

object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or

Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any

target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one

procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while

faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots

while faulting

In my opinion, the shooter gained no significant advantage, but was touching an object outside the shooting area, and should receive 1 procedural.

Edited by Chris Keen
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Whether it was leaning on a wobbly card table or a well supported wall, the shooter was supporting themselves on a prop. 10.2.8.3 lists the violation, 10.2.8 lists the penalty. Do the crime do the time.

Example; Wall with fault line - strong hand only - shooter must lean around wall to engage hidden targets - touches wall with shooting arm - procedural per shot fired. Same day different squad, different RO - shooter rests weak hand on wall - no penalty. Stage thrown out on appeal. Should we teach RO's there are different degrees of support?

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I do think he's absolutely right there .........

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor

will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm

from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload

or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one

procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase

stability while firing shots.

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I do think he's absolutely right there .........

10.2.8 If a course of fire stipulates shooting strong or weak hand only, a competitor

will not be penalized for using the other hand (i.e. the other arm

from the shoulder to the hand) to disengage an external safety, to reload

or to correct a malfunction. However, the competitor will be issued one

procedural penalty per shot fired while:

10.2.8.1 Touching the handgun with the other hand while firing shots;

10.2.8.2 Using the other hand to support the handgun, wrist or shooting

arm while firing shots;

10.2.8.3 Using the other hand on a barricade or another prop to increase

stability while firing shots.

Once again we see extra language is added in that would cause argument - the "to increase stability while firing a shot".

What do we always hear about stage design intent? How do we know that was the shooters intent. Could have been an accident. So here we have that subjective nature coming out again.

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Whether it was leaning on a wobbly card table or a well supported wall, the shooter was supporting themselves on a prop. 10.2.8.3 lists the violation, 10.2.8 lists the penalty. Do the crime do the time.

Example; Wall with fault line - strong hand only - shooter must lean around wall to engage hidden targets - touches wall with shooting arm - procedural per shot fired. Same day different squad, different RO - shooter rests weak hand on wall - no penalty. Stage thrown out on appeal. Should we teach RO's there are different degrees of support?

Was the wall the fault line or was there a fault line up-range of the wall so that the wall was beyond it? If the former no penalty, if the latter then there is a penalty. To take it further, if the wall was the fault line then under 10.8.2.3 there is not penalty for touching the barricade with the shooting hand, but there should have been a penalty for supporting with the non-shooting hand.

As to the OP's question I would not have issued any procedurals because I consider the table as the fault line, therefore no penalty for touching it with either hand while shooting at the targets. They are not supporting themselves with their hand on the table. Their support is coming from the chair they are sitting on. Now if it was a different classifier that required you to remain seated but you needed to LEAN one way or the other to shoot past No Shoots I would support penalties if you used the non-firing hand to support you as you leaned. Without going through all the classifiers I do not believe there are any that require SH and WH only while requiring you to lean around a prop.

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The drawing of the classifier shows the table to be part of the fault line. We are able to sit or stand on this classifier. I see no SIGNIFICANT advantage to leaving the left hand on the table while seated. In this classifier, what would be the difference if my hand remained on the table or I brought to my chest? Since I am seated, bringing my hand to my chest is probably more of an advantage then leaving my weak hand on the card table.

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The drawing of the classifier shows the table to be part of the fault line. We are able to sit or stand on this classifier. I see no SIGNIFICANT advantage to leaving the left hand on the table while seated. In this classifier, what would be the difference if my hand remained on the table or I brought to my chest? Since I am seated, bringing my hand to my chest is probably more of an advantage then leaving my weak hand on the card table.

The drawing shows a table, and a fault line. I don't see anything that stipulates the table is part of the fault line. Does the drawing say HOW the table and fault line are to be attached?

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Remember fault lines cannot be imaginary lines. They must be a minimum of 3/4" on hard ground free of debris. And 90% of clubs running this classifier will simply use an old card table somebody threw out. So I don't see how the fault line is part of the table.

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How does leaving your hand flat on a table while sitting increase stability?

WTH. I was going to post that same thing word for word.

The same way a person walking on a tight rope sticks hands out for stability on the rope, or a runners arms swing opposite the leg that is forward. They act as a counterbalances. With the hand the table, now it's an even better counterbalance because it's another point of contact.

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Remember fault lines cannot be imaginary lines. They must be a minimum of 3/4" on hard ground free of debris. And 90% of clubs running this classifier will simply use an old card table somebody threw out. So I don't see how the fault line is part of the table.

I think a year ago my club had asked John Amidon for an interpretation of the word "attached" in 10.2.1. (It was with regards to a shooting area delineated by fault lines, and one of the fault line was touching the wall's base. Did penalties apply for leaning against the wall for support?) His interpretation at that time was that the object merely had to be touching the fault line to be considered attached.

Looking at that classifier diagram, it seem clear that the table leg is supposed to be touching the fault line.

Edited by Skydiver
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How does leaving your hand flat on a table while sitting increase stability?

WTH. I was going to post that same thing word for word.

The same way a person walking on a tight rope sticks hands out for stability on the rope, or a runners arms swing opposite the leg that is forward. They act as a counterbalances. With the hand the table, now it's an even better counterbalance because it's another point of contact.

Trust me, my hand can not act like a counter balance for my ass while sitting. :P Tight rope walking, maybe. How in the heck do you get from sitting in a chair to tight rope walking and running?

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Remember fault lines cannot be imaginary lines. They must be a minimum of 3/4" on hard ground free of debris. And 90% of clubs running this classifier will simply use an old card table somebody threw out. So I don't see how the fault line is part of the table.

I think a year ago my club had asked John Amidon for an interpretation of the word "attached" in 10.2.1. (It was with regards to a shooting area delineated by fault lines, and one of the fault line was touching the wall's base. Did penalties apply for leaning against the wall for support?) His interpretation at that time was that the object merely had to be touching the fault line to be considered attached.

Looking at that classifier diagram, it seem clear that the table leg is supposed to be touching the fault line.

if thats true, then I'll stand corrected. But I didnt see it on the NROI rulings site. :unsure:

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Remember fault lines cannot be imaginary lines. They must be a minimum of 3/4" on hard ground free of debris. And 90% of clubs running this classifier will simply use an old card table somebody threw out. So I don't see how the fault line is part of the table.

I think a year ago my club had asked John Amidon for an interpretation of the word "attached" in 10.2.1. (It was with regards to a shooting area delineated by fault lines, and one of the fault line was touching the wall's base. Did penalties apply for leaning against the wall for support?) His interpretation at that time was that the object merely had to be touching the fault line to be considered attached.

Looking at that classifier diagram, it seem clear that the table leg is supposed to be touching the fault line.

if thats true, then I'll stand corrected. But I didnt see it on the NROI rulings site. :unsure:

That's why I made it plain that it was an "interpretation", not a ruling.

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How does leaving your hand flat on a table while sitting increase stability?

WTH. I was going to post that same thing word for word.

The same way a person walking on a tight rope sticks hands out for stability on the rope, or a runners arms swing opposite the leg that is forward. They act as a counterbalances. With the hand the table, now it's an even better counterbalance because it's another point of contact.

Trust me, my hand can not act like a counter balance for my ass while sitting. :P Tight rope walking, maybe. How in the heck do you get from sitting in a chair to tight rope walking and running?

It's all connected to body mechanics. :-) If shooting one handed it didn't matter what the other hand is doing, why have shooters learned that it's better to either tuck the other arm against the chest, or take on the bullseye stance of other hand on the hip or in the pocket. It's to build up a solid frame. The more points of contact the frame has the better it gets. Even a rickety table is better than just relying on back strength.

[As an aside: I got from weak hand on table to tight ropes and running when my rifle coach was helping me refine my kneeling position. It wasn't just a matter of getting all support points. It was also a matter of balance. Shooting elbow out versus elbow down makes a difference in balance. Additionally, elbow out and shooting jacket barely touching a rickety scope stand can lead to losing a match because of "external support".]

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Had the shooter grab the table and use it to stabilize, then penalties could be assessed. Had the shooter been standing and using the hand to support as they are leaning forward, then penalties coule be assessed. Merely leaving the hand rested on the table while sitting does not warrant penalties as far as I can see. They are not stabilizing themselves in any way that I can see.

What is SHO/WHO supposed to simulate?...that our other hand is incapacitated. Well, you can rest the hand on the table as it is incapacitated, can you not? Just as you can hold your hand against your chest for the same reason.

As far as touching the table goes, I have to agree with skydiver...the table is touching the fault line, therefore it is legal to touch the table.

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How does leaving your hand flat on a table while sitting increase stability?

WTH. I was going to post that same thing word for word.

The same way a person walking on a tight rope sticks hands out for stability on the rope, or a runners arms swing opposite the leg that is forward. They act as a counterbalances. With the hand the table, now it's an even better counterbalance because it's another point of contact.

Trust me, my hand can not act like a counter balance for my ass while sitting. :P Tight rope walking, maybe. How in the heck do you get from sitting in a chair to tight rope walking and running?

It's all connected to body mechanics. :-) If shooting one handed it didn't matter what the other hand is doing, why have shooters learned that it's better to either tuck the other arm against the chest, or take on the bullseye stance of other hand on the hip or in the pocket. It's to build up a solid frame. The more points of contact the frame has the better it gets. Even a rickety table is better than just relying on back strength.

[As an aside: I got from weak hand on table to tight ropes and running when my rifle coach was helping me refine my kneeling position. It wasn't just a matter of getting all support points. It was also a matter of balance. Shooting elbow out versus elbow down makes a difference in balance. Additionally, elbow out and shooting jacket barely touching a rickety scope stand can lead to losing a match because of "external support".]

I might agree but this would be the ultimate gaming to shoot it that way. To be properly balanced the shooter would have to find that right spot for their weak hand on the table while holding the gun up in the proper shooting position. They would then have to keep that hand there as they placed the gun back on the table and the shooting hand in its appropriate spot. This would still not be as stable as me pulling my weak hand to its appropriate spot on my chest as I create isometric tension.

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How does leaving your hand flat on a table while sitting increase stability?

WTH. I was going to post that same thing word for word.

The same way a person walking on a tight rope sticks hands out for stability on the rope, or a runners arms swing opposite the leg that is forward. They act as a counterbalances. With the hand the table, now it's an even better counterbalance because it's another point of contact.

Trust me, my hand can not act like a counter balance for my ass while sitting. :P Tight rope walking, maybe. How in the heck do you get from sitting in a chair to tight rope walking and running?

It's all connected to body mechanics. :-) If shooting one handed it didn't matter what the other hand is doing, why have shooters learned that it's better to either tuck the other arm against the chest, or take on the bullseye stance of other hand on the hip or in the pocket. It's to build up a solid frame. The more points of contact the frame has the better it gets. Even a rickety table is better than just relying on back strength.

[As an aside: I got from weak hand on table to tight ropes and running when my rifle coach was helping me refine my kneeling position. It wasn't just a matter of getting all support points. It was also a matter of balance. Shooting elbow out versus elbow down makes a difference in balance. Additionally, elbow out and shooting jacket barely touching a rickety scope stand can lead to losing a match because of "external support".]

Sorry, I don't buy it. We are talking about support, not balance. IMO, for the hand to be providing support it has to have weight on it. Like leaning.

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Racerba's response has made me shift my position on the the none shooting hand on table for support. Actively using the hand to grab the table or lean down on the table then penalties should be considered. Just leaving the hand relaxed on the table, no problem.

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Remember fault lines cannot be imaginary lines. They must be a minimum of 3/4" on hard ground free of debris. And 90% of clubs running this classifier will simply use an old card table somebody threw out. So I don't see how the fault line is part of the table.

When we run this classifier we use tape to mark the floor and then place the table on the tape right at the 40' mark. If we shot it outside we would place the table legs butted against the inside the 2x2 fault line. We treat the table as the fault line that the shooter must remain behind.

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