7 Second Standards?

[LGator]

Last weekend at my local IDPA match our new MD threw us a huge curveball. The first stage had 6 targets, three on the left with about one foot between them, then a distance of about ten yards then another three targets on the right with the same spacing between them. (visual below)

X_X_X____________X_X_X

firing lines

String one was fired at the 15yrd line. From concealment draw and engage each target with one round before end of the 7 second par time buzzer. Any shots over time were pasted. This went well for myself and most other.

String three was fired from the 5yrd line. From concealment draw, switch gun to weak hand and engage the targets with one round each before the same 7 second par time. Again, this went fairly well for me, though my hits could have been much better.

The second string was fired from the 10yrd line and was the real kicker. From concealment draw and engage each target, then do an IDPA legal reload (no speed reloads), then switch to strong hand only. Many people didn't even think this was possible. I think it was about the limits of human ability for this game. I figure a 1.5 second draw, .5 second transitions, 2 second reload and .5 second transitions puts you around 8.5 seconds. If you could do it faster than that you'd be able to do it in time, but that was a long gap between targets. I knew I couldn't do it in time so I gammed it to my best abilities.

I did a slide down speed reload and got 7 shots fired while incuring a procedural. My Jedi-master friend skipped the reload and just switched to strong hand only. He got off 8 shots in time and incured a procedural for not doing the reload.

Would there be any better ways to game this? Well, other than actually being able to do it in 7 seconds.

It was a challenge and there was much whining about it throughout the day but I still did very well and had lots of fun.

-Luther

[TRG65]

If you didn't have to start from an IDPA max load which you don't necessarily have to do on standards, I would say only load 7 rounds so you would be at slide lock for the reload.

But essentially they want 14 shots a reload and a draw in 7 seconds?

The IDPA EL Prez doesn't have as many transitions or shots, and a reasonable IDPA master class time is 9 seconds.

[LGator]

But essentially they want 14 shots a reload and a draw in 7 seconds?

Kinda; it would be draw, 6 shots, reload, switch to strong hand only and fire 6 more shots.

I considered it to be an el prez w/o the turn, a long transition and a goofy reload in the middle. I thought Master IDPA el prez's were in the 8's. Either way it was above 7 seconds.

Our MD likes to keep us on our toes and pushing our limits I guess.

I was just happy to complete the reload.

-LG

[vincent]

The IDPA rulebook suggests "PAR times should always be generous enough for your Marksman shooters to be able to ‘get their shots off’." Also in a PAR time stage the shooter is supposed to stop firing at the end buzzer. "Firing extra shots on Par or Limited Vickers scored stages. Tape over 1 of the highest scoring hits for each extra shot fired and also assess 1 procedural penalty."

The MD and SO's don't seem to be following the rules on this stage on more than one issue.

I don't see a way to "game" this string. If you can't successfully protest the listed PAR time with the MD, just shoot until the end of time buzzer sounds and take the points down on the targets.

In Houston your buddy's tactic of not doing the reload would earn a 20 second FTDR for circumventing the rationale of the stage. That would hurt way more than the points down.

[tightloop]

Vincent

Here we go again.

If I had to attempt to shoot that thing, and they gave me the FTDR for circumventing the spirit of the stage, I would have to invite the MD behind the truck and discuss the stupid stage.

As described, it bears no resemblance to any IDPA stage I have ever seen. It would be a good stage if you could draw w/o concealment or do a speed load, but allowing neither, it appears that it is just something the MD thought up to screw with the troops.

What good does it do to ask shooters to shoot a stage that probably only Sevigny or TGO could do within the time limit. If the best shooter at the match can't shoot it within the time limit, throw it out by popular demand and set up something else.

That is akin to one we shot at EL where you immersed your gun and loose mag in a 5 gal bucket of sawdust and went from there...just stupid. I don't understand the rationale behind a stage like the one Luther described.

Sorry, I did not mean to get on the soap box, but WTH is up with this guy?

[Ron Ankeny]

Any stage so ill conceived as to cause the mainstream shooter to fall flat on their face is poor design.

[LGator]

Also in a PAR time stage the shooter is supposed to stop firing at the end buzzer. "Firing extra shots on Par or Limited Vickers scored stages. Tape over 1 of the highest scoring hits for each extra shot fired and also assess 1 procedural penalty."

-Vincent

Yes, this part of the rulebook was complied with. I'm forgot to mention that in my earlier post. When running people I'd tap them on the back to let them know time was up.

This club is small and made of old IPSC shooters who are tired of doing all the legwork and getting volunteers isn't easy. The last guy was a great MD but got burnt out after 5 years. The current MD volunteered and this is what we got. I help out as much as I can, I am a CSO and help run stages, but I live 2 hours away and can only do so much. I emailed him some stage designs, as have others, but he likes things his way, kinda. I should email him some more.

When running new shooters I often find myself apoligizing for a poorly designed stage.

Anywho, it was a challenging stage that really made me think. I just wondered if there was a better way to do it.

-Luther

[Mark Perez]

Anywho, it was a challenging stage that really made me think. I just wondered if there was a better way to do it.

-Luther

Load 6 in the first mag .

Since you are forced to perform "any IDPA legal reload" - a slide lock rld would satisfy that requirement.

[tightloop]

Mark

Can't load just 6 in the mag. LGB says that every stage must start with the mag topped off unless specified.

[Mark Perez]

Mark

Can't load just 6 in the mag.  LGB says that every stage must start with the mag topped off unless specified.

I know.

It also has guidelines on stage design which were apparently ignored .

So why follow the rules now?

This should have been a ltd. vickers stage w/o the par time.

If there is a AC nearby - this stuff needs to be brought to his attention.

[JD45]

I have shot one IDPA par time stage since I joined and it had a reasonable time limit. Looking at all of the scores after the match, it was obvious that the par time evened out the classes. The top guys had no reason to drop even one point, but they did, and some MM class shooters beat them. I think that is the whole idea of par time stages.

[Sac Law Man]

LGator:

Next time, if your looking for a better way to shoot a stupid stage, just ask. I think must of us would rather do without the word "GAMING". When the word GAME or GAMING are used there is an implication that the rules are being bent.

That is not good for our sport, I understand you did not design the stage, but you wrote the post.

[Mark Perez]

But essentially they want 14 shots a reload and a draw in 7 seconds?

Kinda; it would be draw, 6 shots, reload, switch to strong hand only and fire 6 more shots.

I considered it to be an el prez w/o the turn, a long transition and a goofy reload in the middle. I thought Master IDPA el prez's were in the 8's. Either way it was above 7 seconds.

Our MD likes to keep us on our toes and pushing our limits I guess.

I was just happy to complete the reload.

-LG

Had to look up the rule book when I got home. According to the description given by LGator , this is a ltd. vickers string.

from page 24

Limited Vickers Count (for use when shooting standard exercises): 

Same as Vickers Count described above except the number of shots you can fire on any string is limited to the number specified in the course description; any pick-up shots will incur a procedural penalty of three (3) seconds per extra shot fired and one of your highest scoring hits will be deducted from your point score for each extra shot fired. Limited Vickers scoring is used to allow multiple strings to be fired without having to score the targets after each string of fire, thus making the stage run quicker. Limited Vickers should ONLY be used to score Standard Exercises courses and is not suitable for Scenario stages.

Lgator , is this correct?

According to rule 14:

Autoloaders must begin any vickers count string of fire requiring a re-load with the pistol loaded to maximum capcity alowed in that division.

So technically , you would be within the rules to download the first magazine to 6.

After LAMR , you would have 1 in chamber and 5 in the mag.

[LGator]

LGator:

Next time, if your looking for a better way to shoot a stupid stage, just ask.  I think must of us would rather do without the word "GAMING".  When the word GAME or GAMING are used there is an implication that the rules are being bent. 

That is not good for our sport, I understand you did not design the stage, but you wrote the post.

Sorry I didn't know this was a taboo term. I'll try to refrain from this in the future.

Mark Perez, this was a limited Vickers stage. I guess I should have started with a downloaded gun. This is the kind of information I wanted to know. Thanks.

For the record, this club has a realistic shoot house that is used each match. There is a 120 second par time and scoring is limited vickers count. I ran the house in about 48 seconds at the last match and most shooters can complete the house in time. So the MD knows how this stuff is susposed to work I think he just had a brainfart on the string we've been discussing.

-Luther

[Sac Law Man]

LGator:

No biggie..

I like the idea behind the shoot house. I think the best way to run a shoot house or blind stage is to have a par time..Good luck..

[uscbigdawg]

So I set this stage up in practice, to give it a shot. First, I shot it with IPSC Limited pistol. The results (split/overall time):

Draw: 1.0

Shot 2: .25/1.25

Shot 3: .24/1.49

Shot 4: .30/1.79 (transition)

Shot 5: .26/2.05

Shot 6: .25/2.30

Reload: 1.4/3.70

Shot 8: .3/4.0

Shot 9: .3/4.3

Shot 10: .45/4.75

Shot 11: .45/5.20

Shot 12: .45/5.65

With the IDPA setup:

Draw: 1.50

Shot 2: .25/1.75

Shot 3: .26/2.01

Shot 4: .35/2.36

Shot 5: .3/2.66

Shot 6: .3/2.96

Reload: 1.5/4.46

Shot 8: .45/4.91

Shot 9: .5/5.41

Shot 10: .46/5.87

Shot 11: .47/6.34

Shot 12: .41/6.75

With the Limited gun, plus zero. With the IDPA rig, plus 1.5.

It's do-able, but definitely tough.

Rich

[tightloop]

Glad you could make the grade, unfortunately, all of us ain't "bigdawgs", usc or otherwise.

BTW, you did shoot from concealment didn't you?

[uscbigdawg]

Hi TL,

I wouldn't say I'm a "bigdawg", just get lucky every once in a while. Now if I didn't have to rely on luck, that would be awesome.

One of the big things that I've learned this year is to look at challenging stages in steps/segments and see what you have available in the way of time, rather than seeing what you don't have. For instance, at the upcoming Area 4, there is a stage where the competitors will shoot a target at a target that is 50 yards away with 3 rounds, reload and 3 rounds with a par time of 5 seconds. We did the math in another part of BE's site and found when you break it down by the shots, it's not that bad. Same here.

As for drawing from concealment, I did so using the requisite, tactical photographer's vest.

Rich

[tightloop]

As your tag line says, Sweet!

I would have liked to been there. I have never seen a 1.0 sec draw from concealment...

You 'da Man...

[uscbigdawg]

TL,

As much as I'd like to take credit for that, the 1.0 draw was from my IPSC rig. The concealed draw was 1.50 (CDP SA 1911, worked over by a local gunsmith; Safariland 570? holster, the "Custom Fit" and IHL mag pouches).

I just have to get off my butt and shoot some IDPA matches. I shot/won the matches that I shot in KC. I just never have joined IDPA or did the classification process (don't know how anyways). I might try to get out in late summer, once the weather cools off around here.

Rich

[tightloop]

Still would have liked to have seen it...plenty fast...

[LGator]

So I set this stage up in practice, to give it a shot. First, I shot it with IPSC Limited pistol. The results (split/overall time):

[snip]

With the IDPA setup:

Draw: 1.50

Shot 2: .25/1.75

Shot 3: .26/2.01

Shot 4: .35/2.36

Shot 5: .3/2.66

Shot 6: .3/2.96

Reload: 1.5/4.46

Shot 8: .45/4.91

Shot 9: .5/5.41

Shot 10: .46/5.87

Shot 11: .47/6.34

Shot 12: .41/6.75

With the Limited gun, plus zero. With the IDPA rig, plus 1.5.

It's do-able, but definitely tough.

Rich

That's some nice shooting Rich. Congrats. What type of reload did you do?

I think 1.5seconds is impressive for a slide lock reload from concleament and really smoking if you did a RWR or tac load from concleament.

Kudos,

-Luther

[uscbigdawg]

TL - Thanks.

Luther,

Since the second half of the string was strong hand only, I did the run two times, two different ways. The first time (which is what I posted) I did a reload with retention. Basically, when it was time to reload, drew the fresh mag, loaded it, and put the 'used' mag in my pocket, while starting to re-engage. The second time (and this is probably where I broke some rules), I drew the fresh mag, loaded and kept the 'used' mag in my hand, clutched to my chest (i.e. where I normally position it, shooting strong hand). This was probably a breech of edicate, as in theory, strong and weak hand shooting is used to simulate controlling something with the off hand (i.e. directing your companion to a safer position) or the off limb being rendered inoperable. It was definitely faster the second time, but I didn't post it as again, my initial read (i.e. without looking at the rules) is that there might be a FTDR involved.

What do you guys think?

Rich

[Mark Perez]

a PE , no FTDR.

good shootin', btw.

MP