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Silly sweeping question


Skydiver

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The other thread about the dropped cable made me think about this silly sweeping question: Loaded handgun pointed directly downrange on a 3 foot square table. Shooter is standing to either the left or right side of the table. If after the start signal, the shooter steps erect across the front of table, did he sweep himself even if the gun is laying untouched on the table? Now if the shooter ducks across the front of the table avoiding the muzzle, is he still sweeping himself?

I'm thinking the answer are: yes stepping in front of the gun under 10.5.5 by allowing the muzzle to point at any part of their body. As for ducking below, it is not a DQ.

On the other hand, Tim could correctly point out that the shooter was not handling the gun, and therefore it's not unsafe gun handling under the general section of 10.5 that 10.5.5 falls under. As Gary noted in another thread 10.5.7 doesn't require a competitor to be handling their gun to be DQ'd when caught merely "wearing" more than one gun.

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Absolutely. I've seen people DQ themselves by organizing magazines on a table start by putting their hand in front of the muzzle positioning a magazine, without touching the handgun. The rule specifically states - "by allowing the muzzle to point" - not "by pointing the muzzle" I believe that is the difference.

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Absolutely. I've seen people DQ themselves by organizing magazines on a table start by putting their hand in front of the muzzle positioning a magazine, without touching the handgun. The rule specifically states - "by allowing the muzzle to point" - not "by pointing the muzzle" I believe that is the difference.

But is not the weapon on the table the same thing as one in a holster. Inert.

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I don't recall ever having a loaded gun table start. (not that sweeping requires a loaded gun, but it's in your facts).

Here, we seem to have some issues with the definition of sweeping, as well, because if the gun isn't "pointed" at your body, that's not sweeping.

It might make for some interesting arguments depending on how the gun is positioned, and where the competitor is standing.

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I don't recall ever having a loaded gun table start. (not that sweeping requires a loaded gun, but it's in your facts).

Here, we seem to have some issues with the definition of sweeping, as well, because if the gun isn't "pointed" at your body, that's not sweeping.

It might make for some interesting arguments depending on how the gun is positioned, and where the competitor is standing.

I thought almost every club has run CM 99-21 Mini mart at some point or another.

The other interesting about "pointing" is whether the muzzle is considered to be a laser straight line, or a wide cone. In general, for 180 determinations we assume its a line, presumably the same metric is applied for sweeping.

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Absolutely. I've seen people DQ themselves by organizing magazines on a table start by putting their hand in front of the muzzle positioning a magazine, without touching the handgun. The rule specifically states - "by allowing the muzzle to point" - not "by pointing the muzzle" I believe that is the difference.

Yep, ask me how I know. :ph34r:

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I don't recall ever having a loaded gun table start. (not that sweeping requires a loaded gun, but it's in your facts).

Here, we seem to have some issues with the definition of sweeping, as well, because if the gun isn't "pointed" at your body, that's not sweeping.

It might make for some interesting arguments depending on how the gun is positioned, and where the competitor is standing.

This one is LESS of an argument.

10.5.5 Allowing the muzzle of a handgun to point at any part of the competitor’s body during a course of fire (i.e. sweeping).

It refers to the definition in the appendix, but this rule is pretty clear - if any part of the body (other than the exception in 10.5.5.1 for holstering only.) is covered by the muzzle at anytime during the COF, it's a violation of 10.5.5.

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Absolutely. I've seen people DQ themselves by organizing magazines on a table start by putting their hand in front of the muzzle positioning a magazine, without touching the handgun. The rule specifically states - "by allowing the muzzle to point" - not "by pointing the muzzle" I believe that is the difference.

But is not the weapon on the table the same thing as one in a holster. Inert.

As someone stated, the trigger is exposed. Just because it's not in hand doesn't make it inert. Accessibility to the trigger makes it inert.

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Really? No loaded table starts?

No. Reason given is safety.

I guess the MDs can choose to do no loaded table starts if they want. It's not realistic as many majors, including nats (one I can think of specifically from last year) will have them.

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Really? No loaded table starts?

No. Reason given is safety.

I guess the MDs can choose to do no loaded table starts if they want. It's not realistic as many majors, including nats (one I can think of specifically from last year) will have them.

Well we do get a lot of wind in my area. One moment there is not even the slightest breeze and the next wind has come down the Mountains and flattened everything. That and dust devils which can be quite strong. So I guess they figure why take a chance so they do unloaded table starts.

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It refers to the definition in the appendix, but this rule is pretty clear - if any part of the body (other than the exception in 10.5.5.1 for holstering only.) is covered by the muzzle at anytime during the COF, it's a violation of 10.5.5.

That rule is clear. Finding the imaginary line where the muzzle covers the competitor when he's a few feet away from the gun, not so much.

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It refers to the definition in the appendix, but this rule is pretty clear - if any part of the body (other than the exception in 10.5.5.1 for holstering only.) is covered by the muzzle at anytime during the COF, it's a violation of 10.5.5.

That rule is clear. Finding the imaginary line where the muzzle covers the competitor when he's a few feet away from the gun, not so much.

OOoohh yeah right... but finding 180 and discerning breakage --- same thing? :)

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On a similar note, during a practice session this weekend we were doing an unloaded table start with mags on table. When the shooter reached to grasp the first mag and gun (open gun with slide racker) the gun was bumped first and spun. It spun on the racker 90 degrees, basically pointing right on the 180. If, during a match, the gun had broken 180 though not being in hand and still unloaded, DQ?

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On a similar note, during a practice session this weekend we were doing an unloaded table start with mags on table. When the shooter reached to grasp the first mag and gun (open gun with slide racker) the gun was bumped first and spun. It spun on the racker 90 degrees, basically pointing right on the 180. If, during a match, the gun had broken 180 though not being in hand and still unloaded, DQ?

Yes, Muzzle past 180 during COF regardless if it's in hand or not. DQ.

10.5.2 If at any time during the course of fire, a competitor allows the muzzle of his handgun to point rearwards, that is further than 90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop, or in the case of no backstop, allows the muzzle to point up range, whether the handgun is loaded or not (limited exceptions: 10.5.6).

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On a similar note, during a practice session this weekend we were doing an unloaded table start with mags on table. When the shooter reached to grasp the first mag and gun (open gun with slide racker) the gun was bumped first and spun. It spun on the racker 90 degrees, basically pointing right on the 180. If, during a match, the gun had broken 180 though not being in hand and still unloaded, DQ?

Absolutely! See the exact wording of 10.5.2.

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In the original question, I say DQ for the first example and no to the second (though it would have to be VERY obvious he was not sweeping himself when ducking)

However, this makes me think. There was a stage at A5 this year that was an unloaded start with the gun unloaded inside a briefcase facing uprange. Directly in front of the table was a chair that the shooter started in. Video of stage starts at 7:27. If walking in front of the table is not OK, how can a start position seated directly downrange of the muzzle? Is it not a DQ because the briefcase is consider the gun inert as discussed above?

Just playing Devil's advocate here.

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