What would you do?

[Squishy]

I was there and saw what happened. Mike you did the right thing stopping the shooter . No matter what the rules say you did the right thing. I would have done the same thing at any level match.

[Skydiver]

It is true that you would not see a hand activated swinger at a level II or higher because of the error factor. Depending on how it was pulled could affect the rate of the swinger so they would put a mechanical device in the path to make each activation as uniform as possible. This is an example of why we have different rules for level I and Level II or higher. If we had to submit ALL COF's including level I for approval it would be a full time job for a room full of people.

They tried something, had some problems, and learned what not to do. You can bet they use a different way to activate it next time.

Actually, not true. Last year nationals and this year at Mississippi Classic - both had instances of a "beer mug" pulled from the start position to activate swinging targets.

Ah but they are swinging targets. Not activating them would have earned the shooter mikes and FTSA penalties. Can you compel a shooter to activate a no-shoot on a Level II match?

Have the NS cover the target at rest.

Good point. I didn't think of that. Did the course you submit for your CRO long course include that nice feature? (Probably not because off all the issues involved with shoot thru's and swinging no shoots.)

[spanky]

No it didn't. I went simply with no movers/activators. However, I might use something like that at my next club match.

Slow the swinger down and it will kill the shoot through issues for the most part.

Edited August 24, 2011 by spanky

[aztecdriver]

No it didn't. I went simply with no movers/activators. However, I might use something like that at my next club match.

Slow the swinger down and it will kill the shoot through issues for the most part.

Probably getting off topic - but I thought of something - can you declare the swinging noshoot as also softcover, thereby count the hits behind but you also just count the noshoot hits?

[spanky]

No it didn't. I went simply with no movers/activators. However, I might use something like that at my next club match.

Slow the swinger down and it will kill the shoot through issues for the most part.

Probably getting off topic - but I thought of something - can you declare the swinging noshoot as also softcover, thereby count the hits behind but you also just count the noshoot hits?

Doubtful. But I think you could still compel movement but not have the penalties if you use some non-transparent hard cover. I think there was a thread on this a while back.

[Poppa Bear]

Slightly off to a tangent about compelling the shooter to activate the swinger first.

Was the WSB worded such that the swinger could only be activated by using the only strong hand, and could only be activated while in the starting shooting area? (I can understand that most shooters would have done exactly because they did not fumbled the cable.) I'm just not seeing why the shooter had to holster their gun and run back into the shooting area and then activate the swinger with their strong hand. (eg. Thoughts 2 and 3 in the original post.)

If I were in that shooter's shoes, I would have picked up my gun with my strong hand, then scrambled for the cable with my weak hand, activated the swinger, and then made my way back in the shooting area to try to make up for the lost time of having to retrieve the cable. Once back in the area, I'd start shooting and try to get back into sync with the original plan.

Now that Poppa Bear mentioned Level II. For a Level II match, I don't think the WSB could have required the shooter to activate the swinger before engaging targets because the Level I exception for "specify where or when" goes away. The stage become freestyle and it'll be up to the stage setup crew to device something so that the swinger is activated early... perhaps have the gun in a drawer and pulling the drawer open activates the swinger.

And now back to your regularly scheduled discussion about REF vs safety issue vs letting a shooter have enough rope.

It is true that you would not see a hand activated swinger at a level II or higher because of the error factor. Depending on how it was pulled could affect the rate of the swinger so they would put a mechanical device in the path to make each activation as uniform as possible. This is an example of why we have different rules for level I and Level II or higher. If we had to submit ALL COF's including level I for approval it would be a full time job for a room full of people.

They tried something, had some problems, and learned what not to do. You can bet they use a different way to activate it next time.

How can how the rope is pulled affect the way the swinger swings? The speed/arch is controlled by weights, not activators. And I'm not aware of any rules that differentiate prop activation between L1 and L2/3.

It will depend on how it is activated but a prop stick with the cable running to the base could allow you to pull it out at a controlled speed that reduces the arc and speed considerably. Pulling on an object connected to the cable makes it easier to give a good jerk, pull or push necessary to activate the prop. A good method for consistent activation is to have a weight attached to the cable so that the cable pulls the weight off a platform immediately in front of the prop. Weight falls and pulls the other part of the cable activating the prop.

[ima45dv8]

Probably getting off topic - but I thought of something - can you declare the swinging noshoot as also softcover, thereby count the hits behind but you also just count the noshoot hits?

I don't think so.

If it's a scoring target, even a penalty target, it's deemed impenetrable.

[aztecdriver]

Probably getting off topic - but I thought of something - can you declare the swinging noshoot as also softcover, thereby count the hits behind but you also just count the noshoot hits?

I don't think so.

If it's a scoring target, even a penalty target, it's deemed impenetrable.

Yup - agreed. Sucks - I so like the idea of a swing moving in front of scoring targets to take the penalty - but the scoring of the targets is near impossible.

[Schutzenmeister]

I have, on occasion, seen steel swinging no shoots ... Recently, even!

[Skydiver]

How can how the rope is pulled affect the way the swinger swings? The speed/arch is controlled by weights, not activators. And I'm not aware of any rules that differentiate prop activation between L1 and L2/3.

2.1.8.5.1 Lets L1 matches say that a target must be activated before being engaged.

[spanky]

How can how the rope is pulled affect the way the swinger swings? The speed/arch is controlled by weights, not activators. And I'm not aware of any rules that differentiate prop activation between L1 and L2/3.

2.1.8.5.1 Lets L1 matches say that a target must be activated before being engaged.

I knew that, I just subconsciously blocked it out of my mind because I refuse to use it at my matches.

However, if you have a swinging no-shoot, you are not activating the "target," you are activating the no shoot. How can you compel the shooter to activate the no-shoot when you can't give him procedurals because he is not firing shots at the activated target?

Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

If you allow a WSB to state that they can only engage T5 after activating the NS (which is obviously not the target you are physically activating) then you open a slippery slope where you allow a L1 to tell someone they must activate swinging target T4 before they shoot static target T7.

Edited August 24, 2011 by spanky

[Skydiver]

How can how the rope is pulled affect the way the swinger swings? The speed/arch is controlled by weights, not activators. And I'm not aware of any rules that differentiate prop activation between L1 and L2/3.

2.1.8.5.1 Lets L1 matches say that a target must be activated before being engaged.

I knew that, I just subconsciously blocked it out of my mind because I refuse to use it at my matches.

However, if you have a swinging no-shoot, you are not activating the "target," you are activating the no shoot. How can you compel the shooter to activate the no-shoot when you can't give him procedurals because he is not firing shots at the activated target?

Level I matches only - If the written stage briefing prohibits the

engagement of certain targets prior to activation, the competitor will

incur one procedural penalty per shot fired at such targets prior to operating

the activating mechanism, up to the maximum number of available

hits (see Rule 2.1.8.5.1).

If you allow a WSB to state that they can only engage T5 after activating the NS (which is obviously not the target you are physically activating) then you open a slippery slope where you allow a L1 to tell someone they must activate swinging target T4 before they shoot static target T7.

Yup. That's why I had alluded to 1.1.5.1 where the L1 WSB may "specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged". In the case of the stage described by the OP, the WSB was specifying "when" as after the NS was activated, and the "specific target arrays" as all the targets in the CoF.

Edit:

Oops! In my original reply yesterday, I had alluded to 1.1.5.1, when distinguishing between L1 and L2/L3, but apparently I had deleted the paragraph before submitting because I later felt it wasn't relevant. My apologies.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Skydiver

[spanky]

Yeah, I subconsciously block that one as well.

[Skydiver]

Yup, when doing the CRO course designs gotta specifically forget about the L1 exceptions, and in general good course designs shouldn't need any L1 exceptions. I'm only remembering them now because I'm trying to design some stages for a new club that has only an indoor range. They don't have a lot of props (yet), so gotta take advantage of the L1 exceptions whenever possible.

[Nik Habicht]

No it didn't. I went simply with no movers/activators. However, I might use something like that at my next club match.

Slow the swinger down and it will kill the shoot through issues for the most part.

Probably getting off topic - but I thought of something - can you declare the swinging noshoot as also softcover, thereby count the hits behind but you also just count the noshoot hits?

No. Targets are impenetrable, and therefore can't be designated softcover...