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Single Action only guns not allowed in Production Division


Skydiver

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I think I've been giving people incorrect (or at least incomplete) information over the past couple of years. Whenever people asked me if they could shoot their 1911's in Production Division, I've always responded with "single action guns aren't allowed in Production". I just now realized that I actually can't find the rule to back up my statement... Or at least back up it up directly.

On Production Gun List website, it is only for Beretta and SIG that there is an explicit statement that single-action variants of those models are not allowed.

Appendix D4's Special Conditions states that guns with external hammers must start fully decocked. (I believe there's an NROI ruling about how much "fully" is.)

As best as I can tell, a single action revolver is allowed in Production as long as they start with the hammer down on an empty chamber (8.1.1.1).

As for semi-autos, a single action gun with an external hammer (like 1911's) cannot comply with the ready 8.1.2.1 ("Single action" – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the safety engaged.) If it has an internal hammer (like an Astra 600), or is striker fired, then it should be okay.

That is of course with presuming that the gun model can be found in the production gun list and that any mods done on it still comply with appendix D4 (and NROI rulings).

Can somebody help me find a more direct rule saying that single action guns aren't allowed in Production?

If somebody comes to shoot with a CZ-75B, a gun that is in the approved list and has an external hammer, that has been converted to shoot single-action only, but otherwise complies with all the other Appendix D4 requirements (eg. they kept the original DA/SA trigger, but just changed/removed a few parts internally), can I let them shoot in Production Division as long as they always start with the hammer down on an empty chamber? [Although I think that they are Production legal, I know that I'll be suggesting rather strongly that they'll be better off shooting L-10 minor.]

For now, if asked "Are single action guns allowed in Production" I'll be responding with "If you can find your gun on the approved production gun list and any mods you may have done still satisfies the criteria in Appendix D4, you should be good to go. In general, you won't find any 1911's and other single action guns in the list."

Edited by Skydiver
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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action only handguns."

Edited by NickJ
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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action handguns."

Thanks! That's what I was looking for.

I don't know why searching for the word "single" in the PDF was never highlighting that line.

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Don't think single action revos are allowed. This is from the gun list under all brands that make revolvers.

Any DAO or DA/SA revolver with a barrel length of up to 8.5" is approved

Also, there are no 1911's on the list.

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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action handguns."

I think you might be looking at the 2008 version.

That wording doesn't appear in the current rulebook (simply an oversight, I hope).

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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action handguns."

Thanks! That's what I was looking for.

I don't know why searching for the word "single" in the PDF was never highlighting that line.

Okay, I now see why I couldn't find it. That line is not in the current Rulebook. (It was in the previous printing of the Rulebook.)

So given the current rule book, single action is now allowed?

Or does the D4.21 cover it:

Please note that, during a match, a shooter may be required to demonstrate that their gun is in compliance with Division rules by identifying a specific rules clause or published interpretation which authorizes any disputed modification. If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED for Production use and shall move the shooter to Open Division.

Since it's not specifically allowed, then in must therefore be disallowed. If that is the case, note that the old rulebook allowed fiber-optic sights also under the old D4.21. The current rulebook now makes no mention of it.

Edited by Skydiver
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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action handguns."

Hmm. Looking at the online rulebook that is not in there. Is that from the published hard copy rulebook?

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Appendix D4-22 is pretty specific. Specifically prohibited modifications and features. "Prototype and single action handguns."

I think you might be looking at the 2008 version.

That wording doesn't appear in the current rulebook (simply an oversight, I hope).

Yep,Blue book Jan 2008, the only one I have.

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Since you won't find SAO guns on the approved list, and as Sarge said, DA/SA guns must be hammer down, doesn't look like any chance of someone using a single-action in Production.

Edited by JAFO
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Since you won't find SAO guns on the approved list, and as Sarge said, DA/SA guns must be hammer down, doesn't look like any chance of someone using a single-action in Production.

True...

But with the current missing text that disallows single action only guns, it looks like it's legal to modify a production legal gun to be single action only. Since internal modifications are allowed, filing down or removing the hook on a DA/SA gun to make it SAO seems legal as per D4.21.5.

Additionally, why somebody would put themselves at a disadvantage starting with the hammer down on a empty chamber? Only reason I can see why is if you work with or part of a special unit that always operates this way so it'll be second nature and shooting matches is just a fun way to get extra trigger time.

As Mark said, hopefully the removal of the clause prohibiting SAO gun was just an oversight.

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Sorry for the thread drift, but while I was looking for an answer (June 2010 version) I stumbled on D4.18. Maximum weight of a production gun..2 oz :surprise:

or is it just my pdf version??

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Sorry for the thread drift, but while I was looking for an answer (June 2010 version) I stumbled on D4.18. Maximum weight of a production gun..2 oz :surprise:

or is it just my pdf version??

You probably read it quickly (like I do at times). Max weight is 2 oz over the listed weight...

Yes, 2 ounces with empty magazine inserted over weight listed on approved pistol list

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Since you won't find SAO guns on the approved list, and as Sarge said, DA/SA guns must be hammer down, doesn't look like any chance of someone using a single-action in Production.

True...

But with the current missing text that disallows single action only guns, it looks like it's legal to modify a production legal gun to be single action only. Since internal modifications are allowed, filing down or removing the hook on a DA/SA gun to make it SAO seems legal as per D4.21.5.

Additionally, why somebody would put themselves at a disadvantage starting with the hammer down on a empty chamber? Only reason I can see why is if you work with or part of a special unit that always operates this way so it'll be second nature and shooting matches is just a fun way to get extra trigger time.

As Mark said, hopefully the removal of the clause prohibiting SAO gun was just an oversight.

Sky,

please be prepared to show me where in Appendix D4 it specifically gives you permission to convert a Production Legal Gun to single action only. Because you'll be shooting in Open until you do -- the onus is on the shooter....

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Since you won't find SAO guns on the approved list, and as Sarge said, DA/SA guns must be hammer down, doesn't look like any chance of someone using a single-action in Production.

True...

But with the current missing text that disallows single action only guns, it looks like it's legal to modify a production legal gun to be single action only. Since internal modifications are allowed, filing down or removing the hook on a DA/SA gun to make it SAO seems legal as per D4.21.5.

Additionally, why somebody would put themselves at a disadvantage starting with the hammer down on a empty chamber? Only reason I can see why is if you work with or part of a special unit that always operates this way so it'll be second nature and shooting matches is just a fun way to get extra trigger time. Only applies to SA Revolvers 8.1.1 Revolvers:

8.1.1.1 Single Action: hammer fully down on an empty chamber or, if a

safety notch is fitted, hammer down over a loaded chamber

(transfer bar designs excepted).

As Mark said, hopefully the removal of the clause prohibiting SAO gun was just an oversight.

Sky,

please be prepared to show me where in Appendix D4 it specifically gives you permission to convert a Production Legal Gun to single action only. Because you'll be shooting in Open until you do -- the onus is on the shooter....

I agree with Nik

22 Specifically prohibited

modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of

prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to

mean a modification is allowed. A modification is

only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules

clause or interpretation which specifically declares

that it is allowed in the Division

Special conditions:

— Unless specifically authorized above, modifications are prohibited.

— UNLESS a modification is SPECIFICALLY authorized in the rules or

SPECIFICALLY authorized in an official, published NROI interpretation, it

is considered a PROHIBITED MODIFICATION.

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Oh, I completely agree with you too Nik. I feel that dropping the text prohibiting SAO was an oversight. And as I said I don't see an advantage.

But playing devil's advocate, if I were force to go down that route of providing that it's a legal modification, I would use D1.24.5:

Exchange of minor INTERNAL components (strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and other wholly-internal parts)

INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts.

Special Notes/Clarifications:

• Strikers, sears, springs, connectors/disconnectors, and any other part which is NOT visible when the gun is in battery is considered an INTERNAL part and may be modified or replaced unless otherwise prohibited in these provisions (see section 22 for specific prohibitions).

• Guide rods are considered an "internal part" and may be modified and/or replaced with OEM or aftermarket guide rods even though part of the guide rod is externally visible when the gun is in battery. Note that the weight limits in D4-18 remain in force and relevant.

and show that the internal disconnector was modified.

This is inline with the way people do trigger jobs and modify internal parts on their guns to shorten the take up and/or reset.

Edited by Skydiver
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