CocoBolo Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) I recently shot my second USPSA match with my CZ Shadow Custom Shop. I shoot USPSA all the time with other guns like Open Div. It was a classifier match and I wanted to bump my average in production, what bugged me during the match was how long it took to take that first double action shot and insure you actually hit someting, you can't just blow off the round with virginia count. At the safe table a friend let me fondel his CZ75b and the Double action was fantastic so he put me on to Cajun Gun works. In another post I can't find another CZ shooter asked if I could post a before and after picture of the trigger well I went one better here is a picture of two Shadows one with and one without the ERRK (Extreme Reach Reduction Kit). The kit shortens the pull length on the double action it consist of a trigger an a disconnector. I also added the Ultimate Double action spring kit, which includes the springs and extended firing pin. http://s1113.photobu...adowtrigger.jpg Almost forgot, yes it much improved the double action and slightly improved the single action. It had a tough starting point it is a Shadow Custom Shop gun so it was already good, now it is great. Nathan at Cajun gun works does a super job of customer service. Edited July 30, 2011 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 the question was posed..since you can see the adjustment screw from the outside of the gun is it legal for production. but as far as I know, no one has send the question to Amidon for an opinion. also on the ERRK kit he modifies the front of the trigger face which may not be legal as it is an external modification. the standard reach reduction kit does not modify the front trigger face. beyond that..the part is done well and really does a nice job of reducing the the trigger reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) I did ask Amidon to look at my posting regarding the legality of that adjustment screw. ---> Illegal for Production division, which is what I had expected. And, Stuart, you are correct about the trigger-face modification. the question was posed..since you can see the adjustment screw from the outside of the gun is it legal for production. but as far as I know, no one has send the question to Amidon for an opinion. also on the ERRK kit he modifies the front of the trigger face which may not be legal as it is an external modification. the standard reach reduction kit does not modify the front trigger face. beyond that..the part is done well and really does a nice job of reducing the the trigger reach Edited July 30, 2011 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) Quote from Amidon: "Unfortunately due to the ruling on the Vanek trigger and item 21 and 22 of appendix D4 along with the special conditions statement, I would have to rule this illegal for Production division, as it is an external modifications which changes the original configuration of the handgun." I did ask Amidon to look at my posting regarding the legality of that adjustment screw. ---> Illegal for Production division. And, Stuart, you are correct about the trigger-face modification. the question was posed..since you can see the adjustment screw from the outside of the gun is it legal for production. but as far as I know, no one has send the question to Amidon for an opinion. also on the ERRK kit he modifies the front of the trigger face which may not be legal as it is an external modification. the standard reach reduction kit does not modify the front trigger face. beyond that..the part is done well and really does a nice job of reducing the the trigger reach Edited July 30, 2011 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 30, 2011 Author Share Posted July 30, 2011 (edited) I'm dismissing your phone ruling as being, non applicable to this trigger. "See the screw" well any time you pull a stock trigger to this position " you see the screw" and by the way before I put the trigger in I held the two side by side and the triggers are identical from the pin hole to the tip, except for te polished face. So as soon as you start pulling the trigger your gun is illegal! Let me hint at a secret, its not the external part of the trigger that makes the pull length shorter. Ok its a stock trigger so the phone ruling which by the way cannot be applied as it is in and of itsself hearsay and based upon non relevant and incomplete information. The polishing of the face maybe an issue I'll have to read up on that. But in your terms if you so much as touch it with a piece of sand paper its illegal, or is it a matter of degree a little, some, or a whole lot? Edited July 30, 2011 by CocoBolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neomet Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1SOW Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! It is. My pistol had/has a 13# hammer spring with one coil cut off plus all the polishing, reduced trigger spring weight, etc. etc. It still has the FP interrupt as required by USPSA rules. With the same hammer spring, the 75B trigger moved back close to 5mm and the DA pull is much lighter with the CGW kit. SA is also a little lighter, but not as 'crisp' as it was. Stock options for the 75/85 series pistols include 4 different shaped curves to the triggers for the DA/SA pistols. The original 85's trigger (optional on the 75) is also designed to reduce reach with a deeper curve. http://czcustom.com/cz-triggers.aspx Edited July 31, 2011 by 1SOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. so you are going to go with a shorter DA stroke, but not a shorter DA reach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Correct. I have decent sized hands, so the reach is not a big deal. Don't get me wrong, shorter DA reach is always welcomed, but the shorter DA stroke -- together with lighter DA pull -- should also help... theoretically. The additional slop/slack from the shorter DA stroke would help me better prep the trigger. My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. so you are going to go with a shorter DA stroke, but not a shorter DA reach. Edited July 31, 2011 by justaute Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneBray Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 It seems to me Rule D4, 21 ("Authorized modifications (Strictly limited to these items and their stated guidelines)". And, "If the shooter cannot identify an authorizing rules-clause or published interpretation, the RM shall rule that the modification is PROHIBITED...") and D4 21.6 ("Exchange of minor EXTERNAL components. Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and ejectors MAY be replaced with OEM or aftermarket parts. Any other components which are externally visible may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are offered on the specific model of gun or another approved gun from the same manufacturer except as specifically clarified below. Examples of external components which may only be replaced with OEM parts include (but are not limited to): magazine releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers. Special Notes/Clarifications: ... Externally-visible parts from “custom shop” guns will only be considered “OEM parts” if the customshop gun is on the NROI list of approved Production guns." And, Rule 22 says, "Specifically prohibited modifications and features. Please note that the absence of an item in the list of prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to mean a modification is allowed. A modification is only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules clause or interpretation which specifically declares that it is allowed in the Division. Both make it very clear the trigger is not legal. Seems to me it would behove CZ and/or CZ USA to get this trigger into as an offering on the appropriate models suitable for USPSA Production division. Until CZ does, the trigger is illegal. I'm dismissing your phone ruling as being, non applicable to this trigger. "See the screw" well any time you pull a stock trigger to this position " you see the screw" and by the way before I put the trigger in I held the two side by side and the triggers are identical from the pin hole to the tip, except for te polished face. So as soon as you start pulling the trigger your gun is illegal! Let me hint at a secret, its not the external part of the trigger that makes the pull length shorter. Ok its a stock trigger so the phone ruling which by the way cannot be applied as it is in and of itsself hearsay and based upon non relevant and incomplete information. The polishing of the face maybe an issue I'll have to read up on that. But in your terms if you so much as touch it with a piece of sand paper its illegal, or is it a matter of degree a little, some, or a whole lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmeky Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Someone contacted me and informed me about this topic. I just want to say the ERRK was developed to position the trigger rearward to circumvent the long reach in DA. As a consequence of this design, the DA was made shorter and quicker. The concept behind this modification is not really the trigger, it's the disconnector. As justaute pointed out, his pistol is being modified for the short/quick DA only. His trigger will be completely original and unmodified. As a side note, all parts used by CGW are CZ OEM parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Correct. I have decent sized hands, so the reach is not a big deal. Don't get me wrong, shorter DA reach is always welcomed, but the shorter DA stroke -- together with lighter DA pull -- should also help... theoretically. The additional slop/slack from the shorter DA stroke would help me better prep the trigger. so you are going to go with a shorter DA stroke, but not a shorter DA reach. not a bad way to go. it is an interesting feel, as I think the feel of the stroke is slightly different. definitely a longer firing pin may be needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Someone contacted me and informed me about this topic. I just want to say the ERRK was developed to position the trigger rearward to circumvent the long reach in DA. As a consequence of this design, the DA was made shorter and quicker. The concept behind this modification is not really the trigger, it's the disconnector. As justaute pointed out, his pistol is being modified for the short/quick DA only. His trigger will be completely original and unmodified. As a side note, all parts used by CGW are CZ OEM parts. Scmecky, good to have you here on BE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schmeky Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Stuart, Feedback from users of the ERRK indicate down to a 13lb hammerspring provides reliable ignition in DA. However, anything <13lbs does require an extended firing pin. For defensive use, I have recommended a 15lb hammer spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo_Beddoe Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! So the only modification that is legal for the produciton division is the changes to the disconnector, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 With respect to CGW's reach-reduction kit, the answer is "yes." CGW is also doing some additional trigger-job for me. My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! So the only modification that is legal for the produciton division is the changes to the disconnector, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eerw Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! So the only modification that is legal for the produciton division is the changes to the disconnector, correct? actually there are lots of mods you can do..but they can't be visible from outside the gun. On the ERRK and the SRRK the pretravel screw is visible and there is no stock part in a CZ gun that has a double action trigger with a pre-travel screw. The disconnector cut(s) to reduce the stroke is a viable option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justaute Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 ^^^ What eerw said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philo_Beddoe Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 My SP-01 Shadow Custom is getting a similar treatment, sans the pre-travel adjustment screw. Below is a quick summary. 1. DA-pull will be shorter as a result of the new disconnector; this is internal work and is completely legal. 2. The DA-reach can be adjusted by installing an adjustment screw on the face of the trigger, and it is positioned differently from the stock CZ-85 trigger, which has an over-travel adjustment screw. The ERRK screw is a pre-travel screw. After the installation of the new disconnector, there will be more pre-travel slop/slack than that of a stock gun. As the pre-travel screw is externally visible and is not part of the original, factory/custom-shop installation, this part of the modification renders the gun illegal in the Production division. 3. To ensure consistent, reliable ignition, an extended firing pin may be a good idea. Now normally in order to shorten the distance a lever is allowed to move an object the more force that must be applied. Are you saying the kit actually reduces the distance needed to travel without increasing the amount of trigger pull needed? That sounds like a win-win to me! So the only modification that is legal for the produciton division is the changes to the disconnector, correct? actually there are lots of mods you can do..but they can't be visible from outside the gun. On the ERRK and the SRRK the pretravel screw is visible and there is no stock part in a CZ gun that has a double action trigger with a pre-travel screw. The disconnector cut(s) to reduce the stroke is a viable option. I was only referring specifically to the mods on the errk and srrk kit, so the disconnector cuts and new trigger return spring are the only legal mods in this kit? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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