BDH Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 The stage is Mini-Mart CM 99-21. LAMR AYR? Standby Beep Shooter grabs gun from shelf under counter with strong hand. Gun muzzle just clears the edge of the counter, and weak hand is just coming up to the grip... BANG!!! Shooter finishes COF, and range is cleared. Before going downrange RO notices a brand new grease mark across the top of the counter. Targets are scored and all shots are accounted for. It is clear to the RO that the first shot fired basically skipped off the countertop, and then hit the target. It sure did not look like the shooter had control of the gun when he fired the shot. In fact, if the counter top did not deflect the bullet, the RO doubts that it would have hit the target. Note, the bullet did NOT penetrate the counter top.... What's your call? : (sure hope I didn't post this before, but don't think so....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 It sure did not look like the shooter had control of the gun when he fired the shot. Enough said. Unsafe gun handling. Match DQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mactiger Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Yeah, what he said! Troy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 And why did not the RO use the STOP! command? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted April 30, 2004 Author Share Posted April 30, 2004 Enough said. Unsafe gun handling. Match DQ. Aw come on Vince. You aren't letting me fire up Flex at all! I probably put too much info into my post and made it too easy to call, OR, maybe you guys are convincing me that I need to call MORE DQ's in the matches I work this year! I'll keep that in mind.... And why did not the RO use the STOP! command? Good question. Inexperienced RO. Also, people miss things.... I missed one last year at the FGN (but don't tell Troy ) because I was way across the stage, and was diving for cover when I saw it. From my position, I could see the muzzle of all the right hand shooters when they did their reloads, even if they did not come around to 90 degrees. Anyway, I thought I saw WAY TOO MUCH of one guys muzzle, but I was watching the whole stage and the RO that was running him was looking right over his shoulder and had the best position to see whether he actually broke the 90. He didn't call it, and I was busy getting out of the way. However, after having a little time to reflect on this one, I SHOULD have called it. Guess this falls into the sh*t happens category.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted April 30, 2004 Share Posted April 30, 2004 Aw c'mon guys - this one has been covered before, and it's not a DQ. Go read unsafe gun handling again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 I'm waiting to see what the new rule book says about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Hmmm, I just re-read Accidental Discharge and Unsafe Gun Handling and wouldn't want to make the case for either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Hi guys, Although dealing with "discharges while drawing or retrieving a handgun" is already on my "To Do" list for the next round of rule work, let's face it, we'll probably never be able to cover every single possibility of "Accidental Discharge" or "Unsafe Gun Handling" (and then some) in the rules. This is the nature of the IPSC beast because it's a dynamic sport which, apart from Classifiers, does not have fixed courses of fire. I'm also reminded of the US Supreme Court Justice who, when asked about pornography, explained that he couldn't really define it, but he knew it when he saw it. This is a similar quandry faced by RO's. We all know unsafe gun handling when we see it, whether there's a specific rule to deal with it or not. When I'm on duty, the test question I use for "grey areas" is "Did the competitor fire that shot intentionally and under control?". If I truly believe that the answer is "No", then I'll issue a match DQ. Of course if the competitor believes, hand on heart, that I'm wrong, he has the right of appeal to arbitration, where the matter can be decided by three of our peers, and I will have no hard feelings if my decision is reversed. If nothing else though, the "cooling off" period while the appeal is being processed usually helps to make the competitor safer. Nobody, least of all me, wants to issue a match DQ, but our overriding duty is safety. To that end, I will always err on the side of safety rather than allow a competitor to proceed in that match, where it's possible that his competitiveness or adrenalin are pushing him towards the danger zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BDH Posted May 1, 2004 Author Share Posted May 1, 2004 When I'm on duty, the test question I use for "grey areas" is "Did the competitor fire that shot intentionally and under control?". If I truly believe that the answer is "No", then I'll issue a match DQ. Vince, you are a wise man! Great post. Is one of the things you use to determine whether they fired the shot intentionally the fact that when someone lets a round go early, they usually pause for a fraction of a second because it surprised them? Just curious.... not trying to set you up for anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Is one of the things you use to determine whether they fired the shot intentionally the fact that when someone lets a round go early, they usually pause for a fraction of a second because it surprised them? Yes Sir, and this is what the Police might call "a clue". Another is the "deer in the headights look" and the pray "Holy Flock" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 1, 2004 Share Posted May 1, 2004 Vince: good input, I'll keep that "test question" in mind ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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