Scoresheets

[mactiger]

Does anybody print and copy the scoresheets from EZWinScore? Or is there not enough lead time for this for your local match? Just curious. Most of the clubs around here use a generic sheet as well.

Troy

[wgnoyes]

Does anybody print and copy the scoresheets from EZWinScore?  Or is there not enough lead time for this for your local match?  Just curious.  Most of the clubs around here use a generic sheet as well.

Troy

At South River Gun Club, no, we don't use those for normal monthly matches, not because of lead time, but because the office secretary wouldn't know how to print 5x8 scoresheets on a copier and they already do it for free, so I don't want to make additional demands. We instead use the excel spreadsheet "program" found in the 'scoresheets' folder on the ezwinscore cdrom. It prints out full-page.

Cherokee Gun Club uses them as is from ezws, and prints them out full-page. The scoresheet boxes and whatnot are still a total of 5 inches wide, so centered on 8.5x11, they look a little odd with a whole lot of white space.

At Sportsman's Adventure PSC (a weekly club), we printed out a generic "Stage 1" and "Stage 2" scoresheet with maximum target capacity and comstock penalty boxes and asked our printer to produce 5x8 tablets of those that we can use pretty much regardless of what the stage contains. For the USPSA-approved match, we manually print and cut apart the third classifier stage out of ezws. For only 30-something scoresheets, that only takes a short while on any laserjet printer.

For major matches, however, you bet I use the scoresheets out ezws when I at all possibly can, as they are designed to the standards in place at the nationals and are excellent. When I can't use them (3-gun tournaments with 10-point long-gun steel, any stage with disappearing targets, or stages with more than 14 IPSC targets), I designed a powerpoint document that looks almost exactly like the ezws scoresheets with the added features I require which I can customize to suit the stage.

And on a different note, I might add, by the way, that on multi-string stages, total up the times! There are two reasons for this:

1. ezws prints out a single time on the verify sheets which cannot be verified against the individual times without SOMEBODY adding them up. And on a typical 10 stage major match of 200+ competitors (that's 2000+ scoresheets to handle), it slows things down for stats to have to interrupt data entry to do this ourselves. You're the RO; you have the scoresheet in your hand on the stage; make the extra effort to total up the times. Please.

2. Much more importantly. Everyone one of us once in a while lapses and just cannot write down an individual time legibly. You've done it; I've done it; we've all done it. Sometimes the totaled time at the bottom is the only method I've got to calculate what an individual time might have been. If I don't have that totaled time and have a completely illegible individual string time, then at a major match, its a required reshoot because we can't accurately score the competitor's performance. At a monthly match where scoring might not take place until after its all torn down and/or people have left, its a DNF. Either way, the competitor gets screwed out of what he might have regarded as a good performance on the stage.

So lets add up the times, folks. We owe it to the shooters!

[wgnoyes]

OH yeah, why is it that most people don't add up the scores on classifier scoresheets? Are they scared off by the nearby "stats use only" boxes? Folks, add up the ABCDMs so the person sitting at the computer doesn't have to.

The 'stats use only' box is a holdover from the caveman days when we tried to score matches manually. None of my scoresheets ever has those anymore.

[wgnoyes]

...

Following are some best practices to help insure accurate and complete scoresheets (feel free to add to these...)

An additional one:

• Use red ink pens to write scores and time. The color jumps out from the black printing on the scoresheets and catches our eye in stats, especially for penalty items.
  

[George]

Our monthly club matches are getting 20-40 competitors on average now with up to 50 on occasion and as few as 15-20. In the past (1988-92) we were getting 60-80 competitors on average with occasional loads of 90-100+. I worked stats and signups a lot back then, and still do it on occasion now. We still use the same signup and 2 stage per sheet score sheets as back then. About the only things that have really changed at the club match level from back then are that we have a mouse on the computers now, there are some new divisions and squadding is universal instead of what I would call Festival shooting, where fixed RO crews work 1/2 day and shoot through the other 1/2 and everyone gets in line at stages as they want (like GSSF but NO multiple stage entry).

This works well with over 50 and up to about 25 per stage in the match (one day match). I actually miss Festival shooting. It was a lot friendlier and more in keeping with the new USPSA family face. The almost universal club level squad and RO yourself thing that I see nowadays seems to have a lot to do with the lower turnouts and the need to be efficient, but it does suck some of the fun out of things. IMHO, the fixed RO crews also run a whole lot more consistent match from what I see going on now at the club level in a lot of places.

**This will really sound like a thread drift thing at first, but please read on.

OK you say, what's this have to do with score sheets? If you have fixed crews ROing the stages, you get the most consistent score sheets (and officiating) possible. Squadding at the club level with RO duties traveling with the squad and rotating within the squad is responsible for the crappiest score sheets I have ever seen come into a stats shack, ever! This is a huge factor in getting score handling improved from start to stats and being able to fix errors found during inprocessing of the raw score sheets. BTW, Y'all do in-process the score sheets as quickly as possible during the shooting to spot errors and get back out there to fix them while that squad still remembers what happened, don't you?

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Regards,

[Nik Habicht]

Does anybody print and copy the scoresheets from EZWinScore? Or is there not enough lead time for this for your local match? Just curious. Most of the clubs around here use a generic sheet as well.

Troy

We create a stage specific, match specific scoresheet for the entire match in Word. It prints on two pages, including liability release, and is then taken to Staples or Kinko's where it's copied into a twosided, single piece of paper scoresheet.

[Nik Habicht]

BTW, Y'all do in-process the score sheets as quickly as possible during the shooting to spot errors and get back out there to fix them while that squad still remembers what happened, don't you?

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Regards,

Nobody looks at scores until after the drive home. Scores are usually e-mailed by late Monday night, occasionally it's Tuesday night. I wish we could do onsite, realtime, scoring but right now it's an 8 a.m., the pits are empty, to 3 p.m., the pits are empty again, five stage plus sidematch operation...

We set it up, register, walkthrough, up to 51 competitors have shot it, and we're torn down and put away by 3 p.m.....

[George]

Hi Nik,

I have to admit that I only score 3-4 times a year nowadays (mostly at our specialty matches), so that is just the way I attempt to do it when it's my responsibility. I also have to admit that it does happen the way you described it more often than not when others are doing the job roundheah' even if we don't have to do nary a lick of work comparatively.

I have always prevailed upon the good will of the squad I join to allow me to shoot first, or last, maybe do a little RO, then go and enter the scores we have along with a pickup round to the other squads and then repeat the process at every stage, or as often as possible if there are a lot of shooters. I can usually have the scores printing about a 20 minutes after the last shot is fired (or less if someone else inputs a few while I am shooting).

This way at least the chance of finding the squad leader, or the person in question to fix discrepancies is there. If sheets were in-processed "only" as the shooting was done, data entry can be done later and no forensics, or draconian measures would be needed after the fact.

No matter if it's just a club match, we owe it to the competitors to verify their scores while the chance of issuing a re-shoot to fix un-reconcilable problems is still an option. Verification of the score sheet does not require data entry. It can be done pretty quickly at the match and once it is done the cleaned up score sheets speed the process of data entry later. No double work is being done this way and a benefit is being accrued.

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Regards,

Edited May 3, 2004 by George

[wgnoyes]

...BTW, Y'all do in-process the score sheets as quickly as possible during the shooting to spot errors and get back out there to fix them while that squad still remembers what happened, don't you?...

Not if we're not scoring the match as it happens. The lead stats RO for monthly matches at SRGC is usually shooting the match himself and there is no datacenter up and running. Your concerns can be addressed on the stage if the RO with the clipboard will insist that the competitor go over the scoresheet with him before it is sent with the rest of the squad's to the scoresheet filing box centrally located to the stages.

[George]

Your concerns can be addressed on the stage if the RO with the clipboard will insist that the competitor go over the scoresheet with him before it is sent with the rest of the squad's to the scoresheet filing box centrally located to the stages

A whole lot easier said than done, at least IMPE (In My Practical Experience). I only say this because as we all know getting groups of people to carry out specific instructions without constant supervision is a lot like herding cats, just a little bit more difficult

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Regards,

[wgnoyes]

... but I still very much dislike implementing an arbitrary fix (even if it is always a slight bump in the shooters favor if it will not influence the match in any way for the front runners), or a draconian DNF as suggested earlier for after the fact found one shot discrepancies on average Joe Shooter's average run (competitive runs are another story entirely as I also mentioned earlier and deserve a phone call, and after the fact forensics, but never a DNF at the club level IMHO). If sheets were in-processed "only" as the shooting was done, data entry can be done later and no forensics, or draconian measures would be needed after the fact.

That's why the RO with the clipboard should go over the scoresheet with the competitor, just the same as happens at the nationals. Eliminates a whole lot of hassles.

But unfortunately, if one slips through and you can't accurately score the result and you phone the RO and the competitor to try to save the run and the best they can come up with is "Well, I THINK I/he shot it in 12-something..." and there's no possibility of a reshoot because we've all torn it down and already gone home....., well, then its time for the 'draconian' measure of a DNF, because the all the rulebook leaves you with. Nothing arbitrary about the rulebook....

....did I just say there's nothing arbitrary about the rulebooks?!?! Damn.... Oh well, maybe Lord Voldemort won't see that....

[Nik Habicht]

George,

You may have just given me an idea --- I'll try to run around and do a quick clipboard inspection somewhere around the fourth stage....

[George]

Hi Nik,

I don't mean to saddle you with more work, but it sure is a bummer to DNF a score, and an extra pass while the opportunity exists will always catch something sooner or later. It is not just an extra five minutes though, it will probably take you 20+ minutes to do it up right. My apologies in advance.

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Regards,

[Vince Pinto]

I just plain don't think that DNF's for small discrepancies are the way to deal with all errors on score sheets at the club level in all cases and all possible measures to prevent that should be applied including leniency "were appropriate".

There is no longer such a thing as a DNF, and Rules 9.7.5 and 9.7.6 provide a crystal clear solution to deal with errors on scoresheets when they are detected.

And I don't think these rules constitute "hardball" - they actually provide a simple solution to a silly problem created by the RO and competitor failing to check the bottom line on a scoresheet. If people took an extra 5 nanoseconds to check their scoresheets properly (dream on!), we wouldn't need the subject rules.

[George]

Now, that I read afresh (been a long time since I have been through it cover to cover) 9.75 & 9.76 in both 2001 USPSA and 2004 IPSC I understand how that is specified, and I knew that a missing and unrecoverable time was definitely done for, but I was having a problem with the idea that DNF's were being proffered as the solution to all irreconcilable scoresheets (as in improper # of hits, etc). After thorough reading of the rules and re-reading of the posts in question, I see where the ambiguities present led me astray.

Thank you Vince, and my apologies all.

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Regards,

[Nik Habicht]

George,

I'm thinking of appointing one experienced person on each squad to check his squads sheets at the conclusion of the fourth stage --- experienced means someone who's actually done scoring before....

[George]

I'm thinking of appointing one experienced person on each squad to check his squads sheets at the conclusion of the fourth stage

Ah, delegation of responsibility, now you're talkin' Sometimes it's good to do it yourself, sometimes not.

Oveall, a good idea, Amigo.

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Regards,

[wgnoyes]

I've been specifically referring to the case where the time is missing, either by just not being there at all, or by being totally illegible and unrecoverable from peoples' memory. Controlling rule from 14th Edition USPSA:

9.7.6.1 If the time is missing, the competitor shall receive a zero

score for the course of fire.

There is not such term as DNF in the rulebook now, but from the stats standpoint, there most certainly still IS a DNF, and it is a convenient way to reflect that the competitor Did Not Fire the stage. Specifically, DNF is a windows control in ezwinscore that tells the system to accept a zero time and give a zero for the stage. The stats RO may optionally key in all the hits and penalties on the time-less scoresheet, but he/she still selects DNF to complete entry.

[John Heiter]

Well, these aren't really scoresheet tips, just scoring tips but here are some of mine.

1. Laptop computers are a wonderful thing but give me a full size keyboard or at least a full size number pad to enter scores on so I can "ten key" properly.

2. If you're going to make your own score sheets, don't make a sheet with blanks for eighteen targets if you're going to have twenty targets in the stage.

3. I need a shooter number, a time, and hits for each target on every sheet. I really want the columns totalled and a shooter name on there too. Totalling hits is one of the most frustrating and time consuming aspects of scoring and I want a shooter name because all too often I find shooters who get confused and put down someone else's shooter number as their own.

4. If I can con a 2nd person into assisting me with the scoring then I'm a very happy camper. I want them to separate the sheets by stage, ensure that all sheets contain totalled hits, and keep an eye on me to make sure I don't accidentally hit the tab key twice instead of once. I tried having someone read them to me but I found I was much faster on my own. With good help, it's no problem for a single SO to be able to stay ahead of a 120-130 shooter match.

5. Even if you get all the scores entered before you leave the range, keep the paper score sheets with you for a week or two in case someone comes to you later on claiming a discrepancy. Everyone makes data entry mistakes from time to time but having the paper copies allows you to track down the problems.

[Jim Norman]

I just plain don't think that DNF's for small discrepancies are the way to deal with all errors on score sheets at the club level in all cases and all possible measures to prevent that should be applied including leniency "were appropriate".

There is no longer such a thing as a DNF, and Rules 9.7.5 and 9.7.6 provide a crystal clear solution to deal with errors on scoresheets when they are detected.

And I don't think these rules constitute "hardball" - they actually provide a simple solution to a silly problem created by the RO and competitor failing to check the bottom line on a scoresheet. If people took an extra 5 nanoseconds to check their scoresheets properly (dream on!), we wouldn't need the subject rules.

Vince,

While there may not be a DNF as in Did not Finish, if a shotter turns in a scoresheet with no time, there is only one way that I know of to handle this. The shooter gets a DNF Did Not Fire for that stage. I do our scores, I start Sunday night after I get home, usually arount 6PM after having started out around 0630 to build the match. If anyone thinks that we are going back to the range and rebuild a stage so they can get a score, sorry. Learn to fill out your scoresheet! (Hope you all notice the slight sarcasm or tongue in check tome here or I am toast)

[Jim Norman]

Following are some best practices to help insure accurate and complete scoresheets (feel free to add to these).....

Pretty much sums it up, but I've seen a lot of problems due to negligent corrections, so lemme add a few more:

- always check whether the name of the shooter appears on the score sheet. Best practice is to call the shooter by name right before the LAMR command. That'll help the RO to avoid recording the score on someone else's score sheet, too.

- if you're going to wind your way into the heart of the SO, you might as well check whether the competitor's number is recorded... (this one is optional)

- if you made a mistake and have to correct a target row, always, I mean always repeat the correct call in the "notes" column like "1A,1C", and put your sign near, too.

- if you made a mistake in the sum row, you'd help us SO guys a lot if you'd repeat the correct number right below the corrected one. In many cases it's hard to decide what digit that squiggle was... (this one is rather optional - the SO can sum up, too, if needed)

- if you have to correct the time, always repeat it clearly somewhere on the score sheet, in a clear, white place, and (unless it's really close to the original time box) draw an arrow pointing there from the time box, too.

Ivan,

There is definately strange goings on in the universe. Grab your towels and asprin and above all "DON'T PANIC" (Thank you Douglas Adams)

I agree with Ivan (on this item at least)

[Flexmoney]

I can't help but repeat this...

I just did Saturday's scores (I was gone Sunday).

My Rule of 3 Circles kicks azz!!!

32 shooters this month (40+ last month), plus reshoots...not one mistake.

I have the shooter's number (which corresponds with the sign-in sheet) put on the score sheet as it is handed out. Then I mention to each shooter that they need to be sure to fill out their name, division, and power factor.

In the shooters meeting, I make sure that the shooters know that their score sheet is their responsibility!!!

Then I give them my "Rule of 3 Circles" speech...and remind them once more to make sure their info is on their score sheet (it should already be there by this time).

[George]

I give them my "Rule of 3 Circles" speech...and remind them once more to make sure their info is on their score sheet (it should already be there by this time)

Oh, if only there was some actual veracity to that possibility in this universe. But, given the fact of the lowest commom denominator syndrome running the world we live in, the chance that more than 50% of the shooters have complied in any other fashion than to nod their head at each request to fill out their sheets is extremely low. I would like to see actual data from the field on how many shooters are still scrawling it on at the last second befor they go to the line even after all the reminders in the world. I will bet it is over 30%.

I personally am guilty of this last month. I was so busy doing stats that I had forgotten to fill out my score sheets because the shooters flooded signups so fast it was all I could do to grab the first one off the stack for myself, throw it in the direction of my shooting bag and then face the angry mob at the counter

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Regards,

[Flexmoney]

I get most of them right there at the table. We make sure they have room to fill in their name on their score sheet...just before they sign up on a squad sheet.

Nice little "assembly line".

[Vince Pinto]

Vince, While there may not be a DNF as in Did not Finish, if a shotter turns in a scoresheet with no time, there is only one way that I know of to handle this. The shooter gets a DNF Did Not Fire for that stage.

I've never used EzyWinScore, but I understand there's a checkbox (?) labelled "Did Not Fire", which allows the scoring program to deal with a case of a competitor who actually shot a stage ("Did Fire"), but where the time was not recorded.

Maybe the checkbox should be relabelled "Gremlins" or "Oops"?