carrying mags?

[C Sims]

What is the best way to carry your spare AR-15 mags for 3-gun?

1. kydex holster on belt?

2. thigh holster? like 3-gun gear sells

How many mags do you carry per stage?

One in the gun and 2 spares.....all 30 rounders?

Thanks.

[kurtm]

There are more ways to carry AR mags than there are ways to carry AR mags. I usually use 1 or 2 belt holders, either from 3-Gun Gear or Wilderness. It depends on the length of the stage as to how many I carry. I try not to do any carbine mag changing and will run 40s, 45s, and even a c-mag if I think it's worth it. I don't like the thigh rigs as they seem to snag on all sorts of props. I don't like vests as they are way slow. I don't like the ready mag devices or cliped or tapped mags as it really seem to screw with the balance of the gun, and I see them drop mags all the time. This is just me, and I am sure others will chime in soon. KURTM

[George]

I'm with Kurt. None of the googaws and special holders make sense to me. An extra pair of 30's is what I always carry in straight up belt holders (custom leather ones I got years ago) at my side and around to the rear on the left. If I see the possibility of needing a change while in a prone position I have a quick clip holder that lets me grab a mag with my strong hand from my right side without getting out of position. Nothing fancy, just know where they are so you don't have to grope for them and have holders that will keep the mags there for you when you go for them. 3gun gear is good stuff if you are looking. Anything that works is best.

Reloading from the belt works for me. It may not be world class, but I have gotten my shot to shot reload from the belt down to 1.8 to 2 seconds if I keep the rifle mounted on my shoulder and just lean back a little to raise and tilt the well to meet the upcoming mag. I have pulled a couple 1.6's but 1.9-2.0 is rock solid consistent now.

BTW, I only use thirties because I am in CA and they are what I have (grandfathered). I would probably use 40's if I could get them but I can't so, so I don't. Most important thing about mags is not capacity, it's function. I also keep a couple good 20's around because you never know if you will get into a position where the big stick will stick out too far and become a liability real quick when you are trying to get real flat for a low slit port or similar devious stage contrivance.

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Regards

[PacMan]

2 belt carriers on weakside for me, even in prone position. I just switched from 3GunGear belt carriers to Wilderness because the 3GunGear carriers are a little too deep (the old SOF 2" mag exposure rule, I think). They are both good for the intended purposes. I have a 3-mag drop leg carrier that is cool to wear, but not very functional in 3 gun matches - waaayyy too slow for mag changes while running

[rhino]

Courtesy of BigDave at Christmas time, I have a spiffy new pair of Safariland AR mag holders for my belt that I will get to try the next time I have a rifle class or get to shoot a 3-gun match.

In the past, I've use a variety of mag carrier methods in matches, but since I am so slow with the other tasks (like reloading and moving), I never worried over which was the fastest and looked instead toward security.

Most frequently I've used a combination of BlackHawk single pouches that attach to the belt with a velcro loop. They have a flap, but you can tuck it behind your belt for a little extra ease of access and speed. On the front of my belt, I use an older California Competition works nylon pouch with an open top. It has an elastic band around the the outside of the top to hold the mag, and while it's slow to put one in there, it's pretty speedy to pull it out. It works equally well with a 20 or 30 round magazine.

In the last 3-gun match I shot, I chose to use my shoulder bag that I carry in my truck with my truck gun. Wearing it over both my shoulder and head, I used a (Long!) piece of 550 cord to lash it around my torso, so it was kind of like a chest rig shifted to the left. I wore it kind of low, so if I had been concerned about speed, the first three mags (on the outside) would have been as easily accessible as a belt pouch as long as I tucked the flaps behind the bag.

It actually works pretty well and it's very cost effective (about $20 from Galati Intl.). If you have a belt full of gear already, it's a viable alternative to wearing them on your leg or a full-on chest rig.

I've tried chest rigs too, which I assume are comparable to vests. They are very secure and if you have to carry a lot of magazines, it's a good way to go. They're very slow to get to the mags, though, even with the flaps out of the way and even compared to my shoulder bag worn to the side. And if you have to go prone, you're going to have to roll onto your side to get to them, especially if you wear it low on your chest/belly.

[kellyn]

My first reload is usually off a Redi-mag. But I also use a 3 gun gear thigh rig and Wilderness horizontal holder depending on the stage. I always carry at least 2 spares. Sometimes 3. ALWAYS finish!

The horizontal mag pouch at the rear of your belt is the best for prone since you're not laying on it. The thigh rig is nice because you get stuff off your belt which may have pistol mags or shotshell ammo holders.

I agree with some of Kurt's comments about Redi-mags though. NEVER carry your only spare mag in a redi-mag. If you have to clear a jam, you have to drop your spare in the dirt or grab it and retain it somewhere BEFORE you clear a jam. I don't feel that they really harm the balance though. I do like redi-mags better than the taped mags since the redi-mag protects the mag lips and ammo from exposure.

Chest rigs and vests may be good for Blackhawk Down or Fallujah but they're far to slow for 3 Gun.

[Les Snyder]

I'm not in the same class as Kurt or Kelly, but for my $.02.... I carry one more than I think I'll need.... usually just one 28 in a kydex holder on weak side belt... tried the thigh rigs but like other have said, they got in the way... usually stick one 20 rounder in hip pocket just in case (I have a tendency to fall over the barricades at Kyle's match and get muddy so I have an extra Blackhawk pouch that attaches with velcro tabs for the "jungle run") ... for speed shoot reloads a section of bicycle inner tube around the mag well will allow a quick "Ranger" reload ...stays in place, just slip a mag under for those rare occasions when a standing reload is part of the course, but practice it first as you have to pull the mag bottom out away from the rifle so the band stays attached and not get in the way of the opening... this will mar the finish, but my poor old carbine looks like it's spent time in a war zone anyway... I think my A1 stock did.... regards

[ArturoJ]

I use the Buy Brown Kydex mag holders with the Tech-Loc belt clip. You can set them up vertical or horizontal. Buy Brown was/is one of the SMM3G sponsors. I really like the horizontal behind the back configuration for prone reloads. Oh BTW I also allways carry way more than I "need".

[uscbigdawg]

First reload is off of the Redi-Mag. Nailed it in the dark on Stage 1 at SMM3G. However, after working Mr. Cooley, and feeling the HUGE difference in weight on my rifle, I may exclusively load off the belt.

After that I have two California Comp Works mag pouches. First one is vertical where my pistol mag would be. The second is horizontal.

In prone positions, the pucker mag is usually the horizontal (which can mount the mag both to the left and right), is kept on my back and retrieved with the weak hand (i.e. like with pistol).

No thigh rigs, vests, etc. Too much gear.

Rich

[Jim Norman]

Depending upon the match I use either a Blackhawk thigh rig for 3 mags or I use a couple Blade-Tec mag holders straight up on my belt.

If I am shooting a Rifle only stage or match, read USPSA, I use the Blade Tech Kydex mag holders. Lightweight, secure simple, but not the best position if you are loaded down with pistol, rifle, shotgun and a knife for a "Tactical" style match.

If I am at a 3-gun ("Tactical") not a USPSA match I generally got he BH route. Drop leg holster, three mags for the pistol onthe belt high and front, then a the thight rig for the AR. If I need it , I can add a 3Gungear 16 shot bandolier to the 13 rounds on the SG.

I found that a pair of "Y" or "H" suspenders work real well to keep the load from dragging my trousers down.

Get the ones with the padded shoulder straps.

All the ammo and gear you need is available.

One thing you want to do is decide on a minimum number of ways to carry and to practice them. There are as someone said more ways to carry AR mags then there are AR mags. The fastest possible way for me if I practice it, may not be the fastest way for you even IF you practice it. Pick 2 ways, there are rarely enough seconds to be made up by the potential of being fast, then there to be lost are by the reality of fumbling the reload.

THis last sunday, we had a course that required one reload. I left home without my full gear bag, I put one mag in the Kydex and one in my thigh pocket just in case. Problem was, when I went to reload, the mag in the thigh pocket was about where the mags in my BH Rig would be, but it was not anywhere near as accessible. The reload went to hell because I fell back on a practiced move and the mag just wasn't there. Better I had left only the one in the belt carrier. I would have shaved at least 4-6 seconds off my time.

Moral of the story, K.I.S.S. and Practice

Jim Norman

[ccur]

I usually start with a 40 or the Beta (loaded to about 60) and IF I need it, I have a redi mag...I must miss a lot to carry all that ammo!!!

Cheryl

[C Sims]

I currently have one blade-tech belt holster.....I think I'll go with another one for now after reading these replies. Thanks everone.

Anyone have a Blade-Tech AR pouch that they want to get rid of?

[rifleguy]

If it is a high round count stage, I use the 3 gun gear thigh rig, otherwise a Blade Tech belt single mag holder. Best option, of course, as Kurt said earlier is not to reload. gotta love those Sterling 40 round mags, although they don't work real well when you go prone.

[Jim Norman]

Here is an interesting thought.

Everyone here seems to thing a Beta or Striling 40's or other very high capacity carriers is best. OK, I concede that having to reload is a bitch, but it is also a skill involved in shooting. In other than IPSC/USPSA competition, I would not have a problem requiring a reload after engaging the first target, but before engaging hte last.

This promotes real practice. Otherwise, get me a Raptor top-end and a 250 round linked belt! Or a SAW or any other belt-fed system.

Seroiusly, while I agree that the competition is about shooting, I also think that all of the skill sets should be involved, just like stages athat consist of nothing but wide open targets so close the muzzle blast cleans the tape off are not a good test and dneither is a match where every target is 2" square at 100 yards, not haveing to reload fast and clean is an omission that should not occur. Understand, not every stage needs be 32+ rounds, 10-15 is adequate, just insert the mandatory line somewhere.

My $0.02

Jim Norman

[George]

After reading Jim's post on re-loading skills and not worrying about "higher than high" capacity. I got to thinking about the skill set required to re-load a rifle on the clock and I realized that this must be tested. I say we need more rifle standards with mandatory mag changes!

I also have to admit that I too believe 30's are plenty for anything if you know how to re-charge your smokepole fast. I actually enjoy the mag change part of long rifle stages and like doing it real slick if at all possible because it is a real good skill!

I have pretty much settled on 30's for everything, always. I have never felt under-mag'd going to the line with two 30's on my weakside belt and my starter 30 in my back pocket. Well actually, that cannot be said if you are at the MGM IronMan 3 gun. Anything less than 120 rounds of rifle ammo on you to start a stage there would be taking a real big chance on not finishing, and I would personally go to the line with more

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Regards,

[kurtm]

I said I try not to do any carbine magazine reloads....I didn't say I didn't know how! I for one am all for standards....in practice. I don't pony up $250.00 in match fees to shoot standards. I like to run and gun there through cool props, but I am real good at shooting standards Oh and just to bend this back around a bit, with practice any good belt holder will produce 1.5 second reloads for the carbine, just slightly more for a rifle such as an M1A, 1.80-2.25 seconds. KURT

[ccur]

Amen...pass the peas..

Cheryl

[Jim Norman]

I was not advocating for Standards. I was advocating for, if you will the same restrictions we currently place on L-10, Limited and Open in Pistol. Perhaps just two leveles, In Open you can have your Beta C and you can have your 40-45 round mag, in L-10, you get to use 30's or less.

I would also insert mandatory mag changes into rifle/carbine field courses. Otherwise we have to go to 30 plus to do s. why wea out the barrel and sacrafice good stage designs by simply loading up with targets to raise the counts high enough to force a change. SImply insert, a fresh magazine to ge inseted prior to opening the door, or prior to engaging targets beyond point X-Y?

I think it would add to, not detrat from rifle competitions.

Jim Norman

[PacMan]

Oh no, not another restriction...

[kurtm]

Kind of like open shotguns only holding 10 rounds.....what happened to OPEN? Although I must say I like the sound of tacticle 30, maybe limited could be limited 20. The more limited your gear, the less rounds you can have on board.

[ccur]

I'm not sure what the rationale is for going to high round count stages to force a mag change...I've seen people use 20 round mags because they work better than their 30's and others with hi cap mags that don't work at all!!....ultimately you have to 'dance with the girl you bring' whatever she holds!! By forcing a mag change (just like with a pistol) by a high round count, all you are doing is guaranteeing that people who use 20 rd mags (read FN's) will do twice the work...why? I thought this was about the shooting and problem solving..If I solve th problem with a hi cap mag, and someone else solves the problem with creative reloads, it should still be your problem to solve...I don't have a problem with standards for the rifle, I actually like them, I just think that reload drills belong in standards, not field courses...I think we can restrict ourselves out of a FUN thing to do and make it work..lets leave the rules alone for a while and just shoot...

Cheryl

[George]

Open should definitely be Open, so let's get rid of that silly 10 round shotgun thing there (Thank You, Kurt). Limited pistol doesn't limit round count, but does limit mag length. If that were sensibly extended to rifle , and the 8 round limit were removed from Limited shotgun so that bbl length and mag not extending past it were used (sound familiar), it would also be more in keeping with existing pistol rules about mag length and extending past some point. But under no circumstances should magazine capacity be specifically dictated in L, T, or O divisions for 3 gun, nor can mandatory re-loads be required anywhere but in a standards type stage (fixed time, or virginia count). Comstock has to be completely "Freestyle" or we are not playing by the (existing) rules. If you shoot L10, P, or R in the pistol part of a USPSA 3 gun, you get tossed into L for the aggregate and any combo work anyway, so there is no inconsistency, so there is no need to impose long gun round limits on folks using L10, P or R pistol setups in a 3 gun match.

Given 15 stages at the US3G this year, I do hope that each long gun gets a standard stage (or maybe even a combo standard stage) featuring tough shots and a flat-footed required re-load in it. I know I am a poor performer at these as oposed to in practice, I would like to be tested on this at the nationals. If there are that many stages, I would hope that they are all not run-n-gun field courses for some variety. Creative stages don't have to be field courses.

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Regards,

[Jim Norman]

There are a couple of problems with the scenarios presented using mag length and barrel/tube length to essentially limit rounds carried.

Let's address SG first, Ok, We limit the barrel to say 21" and no more than say 1" beyond for a mag tube, now, with the advent of the shorty shells, if someone can make them run reliably, we have just trashed the playing field. I agree with Open being Open again with certain restrictions. Example is Open Pistol, Mag length is 170 and minimum Caliber is 9mm, effectively this limits the round count to 27-29 depending upon creativity and the particular make and model.

With a Rifle, if you limit the mag length to that of a 30 rounder, and a Beta or Drum is "Shorter" would you accept it? I would limit the rounds to the maximum that can fit in a double column mag that does not exceed the length of a GI mag. Open Division, run your Beta. We don't allow mutiple Optics and we don't allow a Bipod in Limited.

This is essentially the same as in Pistol Limited where you are allowed a 140 double or a 170 single stack.

As to allowing a mandated reload, all I am saying is that if you put in a point somewhere in the stage, you still have a problem to solve and we aren't just shooting extra rounds at additional targets simply to get to a number of rounds that will force a reload. I am not saying it needs to be in all stages, but I think it is a reasonable allowance. You could engage one target, do your reload and finsih, or you could pick a spot in the middle that you think is more advantagous, I don't care, but I think it would allow for actually more creative design with lower round counts and actually improve the shooting. Sort of like when we have a barricade and a box, you can speicfy a mag change when switching sides, no real difference.

It comes into play primarily because of the 40 & 45 round mags. THaat is a major difference between Limited having 19-20 or 21 rounds whn=ich covers most limited pistols. Same argument I have againt Major 9 in Limited.

Jim Norman

[kurtm]

First, shorty shells are proscribed by USPSA and IMGA and most other "tacticle" matches, in "LIMITED" shotgus. Therefore the over all length of the shotgun rule makes perfect sense.

Second, a 140 double stack mag will always hold more than a single stack 170 of the same caliber. In limited this can be a matter of 5-6 rounds in disparity for the single stack gun. In mandating a 30 rounder length you effectively are saying only 30 rounds in the carbine, making them all the same in capacity. Do you propose to "fix" the disparity in pistol capacity as well? To even this out we need to mandate 10 rounds per pistol. This is, however, vastly "unfair" to the revolver shooter.

Third, limiting the length to a carbine 30 rounder, a la GI issue for an AR, would proscribe a 30 round magazine for a rifle, meaning no 30 rounders for FALs or AR-10s or even M-14s. Being able to run a 30 rounder in the carbine means a 10 round advantage over the rifle. It seems that this is the same disparity that a 40 round carbine mag has over a 30 round carbine mag.To even the field we would need to restrict to 20 rounds maximum in any rifle/carbine.

Fourth, some of the "high" round count stages are designed that way, not with forcing a mag change, but to ballance the score points between pistol and rifle. If this isn't done, a match could be decided by the pistol stages alone. An equal balance is requiered in order to assure a true test of ones ability with ALL three guns.

When I shoot My M1A I have to deal with the round disparity. I know this and accept this. It is the Girl I brought. It is my choice entirely. I don't ask for dispensation, I just shoot. In my opinion we already have more than enough arbitrary rules on gear. I con...CCUR let's just shoot okay! KURTM

[Jim Norman]

Sorry Kurt, We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I will accept at face that the shorter than standard shells are not allowed.

There is a disparity between single stack and double in Pistol, So what? We do limit the tube elngth and/or round count in Limited SG. So why can't we set some standard on mags in Limited. Hey, in open, do what you like, but even there we have a limit in Pistol, 170.

If we allow the LENGTH of a GI 30 AR mag, then as long as your longer M1a mag is within that length you are good to go, OR it could be the otherway around. A 30 Round aftermarket M1a mag is the length criteria. I just think that a Beta C does not belong in Limited or the new Tactical division.

I also don't have a problem with a high round count stage, but if we allow an unlimited round count, only the guys with the largest capacity are in the game or not I suppose, but I don't see a problem with ALLOWING, NOT MANDATING the inclusion of a mandatory reload in a rifle match.

Jim