Phil Dunlop Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Given that you can't miss quick enough, should the Cup be scored points divided by time? I know the revolver shooters will howl, but wouldn't it be better to reward speed as well? P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 25, 2003 Share Posted January 25, 2003 Stock gun rules are tough now. It is a demanding match with an iron sight gun. Comstock sure would be interesting for open guns. Has a group of shooters ever tried this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted January 26, 2003 Share Posted January 26, 2003 If you can get that one past the "powers that be" at NRA, go for it! My shooting buddies tell me I shoot too fast as it is. On Bianchi plates, I generally run about 4.5 sec. at the 10 yd line and clean 'em that distance, so maybe I could beat one of 'em if they changed the scoring that way! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 26, 2003 Author Share Posted January 26, 2003 One of the difficulties I find as an occasional NRA shooter, IPSC by incination, is competing with guys so used to the times. IMO it makes the game too specialised, though the course of fire is excellent. I would like to take the stock gun thing further, (given the highly specialised open guns and their cost) and see a one gun triple crown for Limited and Production for the IPSC Nats, Steel Challenge and Bianchi. It would require alteration of rules, but would be a major shot in the arm for all three diciplines and huge cudos for the winning manufacturers. Might even help with the 'interdisciplinary rivalry' that sours clubs over this way. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Phil, You know my opinion on this. I would love to give that a crack. But I suggest you leave the NRA course of fire as is. If you need to compare scores then we would go with the percentage basis. The man with the highest combined percentage wins. I also believe that you should use the same firearm and ammo for all three events. If you use major PF for IPSC then you must shoot Major through all three courses of fire. You could then take a punt on weather or not you would do well shooting minor at IPSC. But hey I use the same pistol for all three now!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 27, 2003 Share Posted January 27, 2003 Ok, let me get this straight. You are an occasional NRA shooter and you have trouble with timed fire so you want to change a sport that is celebrating it's 25'th anniversary in May. WOW what audacity! You figure you're more important than the guys who've been shooting this for years? I suggest that you embrace the discipline of timed fire and trying to put em all in the x ring. There is a lot a person can learn about the basics of shooting in NRA Action Pistol. A lot of good shooters believe that practicing the Bianchi Cup course of fire will make you a better all around shooter. I'll bet BE is one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 27, 2003 Author Share Posted January 27, 2003 2 Alpha, perhaps you should read my post again, this time with an open mind. I was suggesting that scoring Bianchi comstock might improve the match for the reasons stated; that it would reward speed, and be less specialized, who knows it may even attract shooters! There aren't many things in my world beyond question, call that audacious if you like. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gm iprod Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 Hey I think Phil is heading in the right direction. NRA Action Pistol is in bad shape here in New Zealand and in many other parts of the world, so any idea to get other people shooting it is going to get my vote. The biggest problem we have, anywhere, is that some people shoot IPSC and some shoot NRA. Very bloody few shoot both (a lot of top organisers do anything in there power to on the other). And even fewer shoot both well. I shoot NRA to middle master grade and IPSC to high B and hoping to get A. Practice is the problem. I currently shoot NRA over IPSC and will only shoot IPSC when I have a spare weekend. There are more people shooting IPSC than NRA because of the variety of the matches, its not the same every time. Another problem we have is that most clubs will only shoot the same 4 matches and will not drop a few odd ones in to mix it up. Phil and I have had discusions concerning this for ages, but most IPSC shooters here are too bloody scared about shooting the match badly and vica versa. But any IPSC shooter that shoots as per Phil's idea will be up against other shooters shooting to the same system and they will compete on the same level. I find NRA to be really good practice for IPSC, except for mag changes and mine need help. IPSC is bad practice for NRA, as speed is fairly dominant once everybody is shooting major, so a lot of guys just hammer away at targets that are most likely less than 15yards away, I have seen and heard many shooters whinge when they see a target set at 35-50yard, and no way to run up to it. I don't think Phil was suggesting that the Bianchi Cup change, but it should be tried at club level to get others involved. The Bianchi Cup, with the exception of this year I expect, has had terrible trouble with promotion, less people shoot it and there are very few young people getting involved (sound familiar?????). I am hoping to get over this year myself, mainly due to family and business commitments this is going to be my one crack. So try his idea, if it works great, if not, try something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I know Phil said Comstock, but if the goal is points per second...you'd want Virginia count, right? (It's tough counting those holes as it is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 28, 2003 Author Share Posted January 28, 2003 Good point Flex! I talk to NRA newcomers that can't complete the string in time and are forced to fire hopers, and IPSC shooters that are disadvantaged by completing well within time. I just dared to question why the match isn't scored in the same way as IPSC. Thanks for the elaboration Richard, when I first started shooting IPSC, Robbies statement that IPSC shooters were the 'Jack of all trades' struck a chord with my vanity. No sooner was that said and the three main matches, IPSC, NRA and SC all went their own way in terms of specialisation and therefore cost and of course participation is down Seems to me since Limited, the gear has moved along nicely, allowing a competitor to shoot all three matches with pretty much the same gun. I thought it would be good if the same mindset could be applied to all 3 too. Hope that makes sense, P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 28, 2003 Share Posted January 28, 2003 I don't think the COF should change. At least for me, I like to shoot Bianchi because it is the same and I like to shoot IPSC because it's not. The change is nice. I work on accuracy and technique for NRA and speed for IPSC. IPSC makes me a better Action Pistol shooter and vice versa. The specialization is no different than Open class IPSC. My first Open NRA auto pistol was an old IPSC gun with a barricade shroud in 9x23. Just think of Action Pistol as a fixed time IPSC COF. Learn how to shoot each event and shoot. One problem with the Cup is the duration of the match and the expense. More shooters would participate if they knew how first class Bianchi is. But there lies the problem.. it costs the NRA many $$$ to put on the match and pay out the prize money. Therefore, the NRA charges $325 to shoot the Cup. Also, to shoot the match you have to stay in Columbia for, at least, four week days. Not many people will do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Phil, From experience I can tell that the NRA would never consider it, much less implement a change of that magnitude. It would, however, provide at least an interesting if not exciting challenge at a local level. Logistical problems at the cup would be: All the courses would have to be shot one shooter at a time, so you could record each shooter's individual time. This would dramatically increase the time to rum the match - as two of the courses currently run four shooters through at a time. It would make judging the mover very tricky, since the shooter would now be keenly interested in getting done in the quickest possible time. Did he wait to see the target before he drew, or didn't he? Man, it would make the plates interesting, wouldn't it. If you had only 48 shots for 48 ten point plates, you wouldn't want to missing too many... Just how fast do you think you could you actually hit all the plates. Wheweee! be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Action Pistol grew out of the combination of IPSC,PPC and Bullseye competition. Once again, an element of the shooting population recommends weighting SPEED over the element of accuracy. The drama of the match comes from the competitor attempting to fire 192 PERFECT rounds,not attempting to shave a tenth of a second off of the combined time to shoot the mover or a rack of plates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Good point, Chuck. Maybe some don't realize that once you clean the first 48 plates, you shoot for X's and the time is reduced by two seconds a string, at least at the "big" matches. Miss one and you are done!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Chuck D, "Action Pistol grew out of the combination of IPSC,PPC and Bullseye competition. Once again, an element of the shooting population recommends weighting SPEED over the element of accuracy. The drama of the match comes from the competitor attempting to fire 192 PERFECT rounds,not attempting to shave a tenth of a second off of the combined time to shoot the mover or a rack of plates." Very true. Still, say you have 5 to 8 shooters who all shoot that illusive perfect score, then of course you still have the accuracy requirement (X-ring count) to break ties. But the plates don't have X-rings. That course of fire doesn't accurately relate to the rest of the match, once a perfect score has been fired by two or more shooters, especially under Open gun rules/shooting positions. What does that mean? I'm not sure exactly. But for fun/learning only, I still think it would be a great challenge to shoot the plates virginia count. Even if just by yourself in practice. I agree that the Cup should not change the scoring system to comstock/virginia count. The folks who have shot and are still shooting that match do so because they enjoy the challenge the Cup provides. I'm sure it would die out if it the scoring system were changed that drastically. Although, over-specialization may kill it on its own. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 I suck at bullseye shooting, every time I shoot it I get beat by guys that I could beat easy at a USPSA match. I think they should change bullseye to comstock so I could have a better chance, and hey let me use two hands. LOL Shooting the NRA action courses comstock might be fun in practice but I don't think it would be too popular with the majority of USPSA shooters and it sure wouldn't be with the regular NRA shooters. It would be just like comstock standards which aren't too popular at the Nationals. I still remember the standards at Reno Limited Nats one year. They had 50 yds and the whining was awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 Running the risk of "upsetting" someone ( awlays seem to do that anyway...oh well) Action Pistol IS a specialty shooting disclipine. The majority of IPSC guys try it once or twice...find out it's not as easy as it looks and quit. Of course,the ones whom have a "better than average" grasp of the fundamentals of shooting will succeed at whatever shooting sport they choose to participate in. Guys like Brian,TGO,Doug Koenig and Mike Voigt are the proof that a shooter can concentrate on both disclipines and have success but to reduce Action Pistol to another version of IPSC does absolutely no justice to the principles the disclipine was founded on. We have enough "spray and pray" as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRT Driver Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 BE, My point regarding the plates was in reference to ties in that event, not the whole match. Some may not realize, the time limits are reduced by two seconds and shooting continues until a miss occurs. Unlike IPSC, where Steel = Comstock. Too many shooters over empasize the celeritas and ignore the diligencia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted January 29, 2003 Share Posted January 29, 2003 "Enough spray ( and run ) and pray". I do agree. It is a shame NRA Action Pistol seems to be vanishing except for the Cup and a few regionals. (Edited by Trader at 8:18 pm on Jan. 29, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 31, 2003 Share Posted January 31, 2003 SRT, I'm with you. Trader, It is kind of sad, but, I think it is inevitable, because - The Cup's course of fire basically "spun-off" or grew out of a base of IPSC shooters. What draws folks to IPSC is the free-style nature and the diversity offered by the (typically) surprise COFs. Consequently most IPSC shooters get bored after shooting the Cup COF for a given time. Eventually, after years of this, the Cup COF reaches a point where it must establish or achieve its own group of shooters based on its own challenge. Additionally, in "the ol days," when there weren't that many matches to shoot and even IPSC required one to "know how to shoot," the Cup offered a nice and welcome change/challenge. But nowadays it must stand on its own. So what we are left with (The Cup's popularity) reflects how much the COF is embraced by the general shooting community. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan550 Posted February 1, 2003 Share Posted February 1, 2003 Another change that was suggested last year was to change the scoring rings from X-10-8-5 to 10-9-8-5, to at least temporarily eliminate the perfect 1920s. Some of the top shooters don't even do the extra X-count firing on plates, because that has no effect on total posted score for the match. The extra plates are only used to determine the winner of that particular event, so Doug doesn't even shoot them after the first 48. "Thread drift" There's also been made the suggestion to include a Rimfire Class to help raise participation, since NRA is now keeping records on Rimfire scores in all events listed in the rule book. Their claim of how many shooters they have at Camp Perry is really bogus, since one shooter is counted again for every "match" they shoot there, and adding Rimfire at the Cup would bring in more shooters. Especially if we were allowed to compete with more than one gun. As it stands now, they claim that the facility won't handle that many in the schedule, so make it for the whole week, instead of just the 3-4 days that are used now. I just hope this isn't the last Cup, and with a new coordinator at NRA, it may live on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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