sperman Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I was at a match recently and had an edge hit on a target. When I asked for an overlay the CRO on the stage told me " The match director said we aren't using overlays at this match." How would you react? (This was a Level 2 match.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsydlooknin75 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I'd be a little upset myself. And go up the chain of command. Pull the target and ask the md for a call. Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razerok1 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 im not positive on the rules and if they are required to use an overlay or not.. but if it was that close i would have been pretty upset and would have asked to speak to the match director before anyone pasted the target and ask why they were not using overlays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a.roberts Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Find the Range Master. And have a rulebook handy when I do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 9.6.5 In the event that the Range Officer upholds the original score or penalty and the competitor is dissatisfied, he may appeal to the Chief Range Officer and then to the Range Master for a ruling. 9.6.6 The Range Master’s ruling will be final. No further appeals are allowed with respect to the scoring decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Three points - 1. The MD has no such authority 2. Rule 9.6.8 specifically mentions overlays 3. Find the RM who should know better (I'm pretty sure he's supposed to have a rulebook in his hand if not in his head) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively, as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable scoring zone of hits on paper targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 9.6.8 Scoring overlays approved by the Range Master must be used exclusively, as and when required, to verify and/or determine the applicable scoring zone of hits on paper targets. Hmmm. "Approved by the Range Master..." So maybe the RM doesn't have to approve them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L-10_shooter Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Why would a range master choose not to recognize the use of an over lay for a level 2 match? Hope I never run into that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I was at a match recently and had an edge hit on a target. When I asked for an overlay the CRO on the stage told me " The match director said we aren't using overlays at this match." How would you react? (This was a Level 2 match.) 1. Who cares what the MD said? He's not in a position to make that call. 2. Time to ask for the RM. If the RM gives you the same response, it's time either to file an arbitration, or to file a complaint with NROI..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 ....or maybe just accept the RO's call on the target and move on? That's what I have generally done, even when I'm not sure I agree with the call. Overlays are misused as often as they are used. When you're using rough perforations on brown cardboard as your scoring lines, nothing you do is ever going to be 100% accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sperman Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 I can tell you what went through my head at the time: 1. What kind of RO (CRO actually) doesn't grant the users request for an overlay. 2. If this really came from the match director, what's the point in asking for the RM. For all I know, they all agreed to it before the match. If I had it to do over again, I would have asked to have the target pulled and called for the RM, but I can't guarantee that request would have been granted either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 2. If this really came from the match director, what's the point in asking for the RM. It's not the Match Director's call. Officiating is up the the Range Master. 7.1.6 Range Master (“RM”) – has overall authority over all persons and activities within the entire range, including range safety, the operation of all courses of fire and the application of these rules. All match disqualifications and appeals to arbitration must be brought to his attention. The Range Master is usually appointed by and works with the Match Director, however, in respect of USPSA sanctioned Level III and Nationals matches, the appointment of the Range Master is subject to the prior written approval of the Director of NROI. 7.1.7 Match Director (“MD”) – handles overall match administration including squadding, scheduling, range construction, the coordination of all support staff and the provision of services. His authority and decisions will prevail with regard to all matters except in respect of matters in these rules which are the domain of the Range Master. The Match Director is appointed by the host organization and works with the Range Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer1911 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 (edited) An RO did state the RM said no Overlays. However as the CRO I not only used my overlay I used two of them to show that the call was correct. Not clear what the beef is about this. Edited June 15, 2011 by Jammer1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 If this occured at the DoubleTap then you are remembering it wrong. An RO did state the RM said no Overlays. However as the CRO I not only used my overlay I used two of them to show that the call was correct. Not clear what the beef is about this. Forget what match it was. No one is here to play the blame game. However, with that said the topic of discussion is can the RM state no overlays? Is that legal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer1911 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I just wanted to clear the air since This is a recent incident and sounds strangely like what happened there. And as the CRO I know what we were told but I also know as a competitor I would have wan't the call verified as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I just wanted to clear the air since This is a recent incident and sounds strangely like what happened there. And as the CRO I know what we were told but I also know as a competitor I would have wan't the call verified as well. That creates another interesting question. If an RM can decide that overlays won't be used at all, does it give certain competitors an unfair advantage if the CRO goes ahead and overlays targets anyway? I think it probably does... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 However, with that said the topic of discussion is can the RM state no overlays? Is that legal? That is not the topic. RM and MD are different people/jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jammer1911 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 the unfair advantage is only if the CRO only did for one but not the other competitors. I would have done this for any that made the request. Does not slow anything down that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beltjones Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 However, with that said the topic of discussion is can the RM state no overlays? Is that legal? That is not the topic. RM and MD are different people/jobs. That's not really the topic either. The MD clearly does not have that authority. The question is, does anyone? Ultimately if anyone does it would be the RM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMartens Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 1. Ask RO to overlay, if he won't... 2. Ask CRO to overlay, if he won't... 3. Ask CRO to pull the target and call the RM to make the final call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Why not pull out the overlay and make a call? Seems like a simple request that is a right of the shooter per the rulebook. I was at a match recently where a shooter also made the request and was refused. The Ro pulled the target but that slowed us down more than an overlay would have slowed us down. Why not overlay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Why not pull out the overlay and make a call? Seems like a simple request that is a right of the shooter per the rulebook. I was at a match recently where a shooter also made the request and was refused. The Ro pulled the target but that slowed us down more than an overlay would have slowed us down. Why not overlay? Right on. It is just good mojo to have your overlays at the ready and use them. I think it saves time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Why not pull out the overlay and make a call? Seems like a simple request that is a right of the shooter per the rulebook. I was at a match recently where a shooter also made the request and was refused. The Ro pulled the target but that slowed us down more than an overlay would have slowed us down. Why not overlay? Right on. It is just good mojo to have your overlays at the ready and use them. I think it saves time. Exactly! Ask and you shall receive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 the unfair advantage is only if the CRO only did for one but not the other competitors. I would have done this for any that made the request. Does not slow anything down that much. The unfair advantage is when only the CRO on your stage (you, if I read correctly) decided to ignore this mandate (as you should have). If the RO's and CRO's on the rest of the stages didn't similarly ignore it, a strong possibility of inequity exists. Good on you, by the way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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