CHA-LEE Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I have decided to do some real testing on shooting Limited Minor in 40 caliber. In this effort I am building a 9oz slide for my EAA Witness limited and I am also building up an M&P Pro 40 with a 9oz slide in order to see which one works better. I figured it would be cool to test both vantage points (Heavy Metal Frame, verses Light Plastic Frame) when giving Limited Minor a try. I have gotten a EAA Witness limited slide cut down to 9oz and its off to get hard chromed right now. So now its time to turn my focus on the M&P Pro 40 I stripped down the slide taking everything off of it (sights, extractor, striker, barrel, guide rod, etc) and the stock weight is just under 13.5oz. Getting that porky slide down to 9oz is going to take some serious and creative time in the mill, but the gunsmith I am working with says its doable. It will be a week or so until I get the slide back so in the mean time I have been wrangling up the upgrade parts needed to complete the build. So far I am adding the following parts to the gun in order to get it in Limited Division fighting condition. Given how many big matches I have coming up I probably won’t get it all done and ready to test until early or mid July, but its nice to get the project started. I will keep you guys posted on my findings as I get this blaster built up. Upgrade Parts going on the M&P Pro 40 Dawson .115” wide FO Front sight SSS Long Tungsten Guide Rod SSS Limited Aluminum Magwell 11lb Recoil Spring APEX Competition Spring Kit Taylor Freelance 140mm Base Pads Sub 2lb Trigger Job done by myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JakeMartens Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 If you are going to shoot minor why not go with the 9mm and get the extra rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 If you are going to shoot minor why not go with the 9mm and get the extra rounds? Read my mind, Jake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Why not 9mm instead of 40?.... three reasons...... (1) .40 Minor loads shoot softer and knock down steel better (More mass) than 9mm Minor loads. (2) With the 140mm base pads you can get 20 rounds in a mag. There are very, very few stage scenarios where having more than 20 rounds in a mag is truly an advantage where you can get away with not doing a reload. The vast majority of the time there is an opportunity to do a reload during a stage run well before you shoot 20 rounds. Having 3 extra rounds using 9mm really isn't as big of an advantage as people think it is. If the 9mm round count advantage was 6+ rounds verses .40 , then it would be an advantage. (3) My press is setup to reload 40 caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowrider Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Cha, With the 140mm TF extensions, it's +6 rounds in 9mm. I can start with 24 in the gun with my 9Pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 (edited) Why not 9mm instead of 40?.... three reasons...... (1) .40 Minor loads shoot softer and knock down steel better (More mass) than 9mm Minor loads. (2) With the 140mm base pads you can get 20 rounds in a mag. There are very, very few stage scenarios where having more than 20 rounds in a mag is truly an advantage where you can get away with not doing a reload. The vast majority of the time there is an opportunity to do a reload during a stage run well before you shoot 20 rounds. Having 3 extra rounds using 9mm really isn't as big of an advantage as people think it is. If the 9mm round count advantage was 6+ rounds verses .40 , then it would be an advantage. (3) My press is setup to reload 40 caliber. But having major power factor is a huge advantage. Giving that up has to come with something in return besides lower recoil. And this is coming from a guy who just shot his best match ever...with a minor gun in a division that allows for major. Don't get me wrong, I admire your idea. I just don't think it'll pay off in the way you're hoping. I bet it'll be a blast to shoot, though. Edited June 14, 2011 by twodownzero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Maybe I am wasting my time. But at least I am going to try it out and either prove or disprove its validity in Limited. I know for a fact that I can shoot minor power factor ammo faster than Major simply because the gun does not muzzle flip. At least on my EAA Witness Limited I could the last time I built a 40 Minor top end for it. I could pretty much shoot and call my shots as fast as I could run the trigger because the front sight never left the target. I have a solid enough grip to almost do this shooting Major PF ammo, but almost isn't enough. In the math that I have done I would need to shoot 6% faster in order to offset the reduction in scored hits. I am pretty sure I can shoot minor PF ammo more than 6% faster simply because there is significantly less muzzle flip to manage between shots. It will be a fun experiment to try out this summer. Maybe it will work great, maybe it will be a flop. But either way I am not going to let hear say determine my stance on this subject. I will test it out and see how it works out first hand. In order to truely do this I need to build up some dedicated Minor PF pistols (Heavy and light weight) that will take advantage of the reduced PF loads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Ive shot a lot of .40 minor. I prefer it to anything Ive shot. Im looking forward to seeing the results of your tests. Keep us posted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty whiteboy Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I'll be watching this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary H. Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I'll be watching this thread. +1 !!! I want detailed pics of that slide when your done,,,,,, please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Basically you seem to be saying "Limited minor .40 is for me because the gun doesn't require me to have to track the sights as much .... I can get away with double tapping, and not call my second shots because the gun doesn't move." Not sure how that will work out for you. The added benefits of extra rounds is probably the only tangible benefit of shooting 9mm Limited minor, imo. And as you pointed out there are very few stages that really make that benfit pay off.... and way to many stages that have swingers, partial targets, etc that will force you to shoot Cs, or take too much time to shoot As, to make it worth while. Its a great concept, Limited minor, on paper or at the practice range - I think that you will find in actual matches, especially at Area level or higher you will be at a disadvantage. Especially in .40 and not 9mm. BUT - hey, have fun, sounds like a good time, and a challenge. Prove us wrong! (ps - I had a STI 9mm that was so much fun to shoot I shot minor Limited with it occasionally... it was fun, and the splits were very fast.... but I found myself concentrating so hard on having to get the A's that it slowed me down enough where I really wasn't any faster on a field course that with my .40 major gun. And those (C's and D's) really hurt.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 FYI. If you give Matt Burkett a call, you might save yourself some time and money. He'll give you the straight low down on it. If you want to duplicate the results everyone else I know that has tried it got, then have fun shooting light loads ps. I'm shooting minor in SS and I KNOW that my scores will be equal or worse than if I shot major. I'm doing it because I have little shooting time and I'm shooting a couple IDPA matches this year and I just want to shoot one gun and I have heaps of 9mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 Basically you seem to be saying "Limited minor .40 is for me because the gun doesn't require me to have to track the sights as much .... I can get away with double tapping, and not call my second shots because the gun doesn't move." Not sure how that will work out for you. The added benefits of extra rounds is probably the only tangible benefit of shooting 9mm Limited minor, imo. And as you pointed out there are very few stages that really make that benfit pay off.... and way to many stages that have swingers, partial targets, etc that will force you to shoot Cs, or take too much time to shoot As, to make it worth while. Its a great concept, Limited minor, on paper or at the practice range - I think that you will find in actual matches, especially at Area level or higher you will be at a disadvantage. Especially in .40 and not 9mm. BUT - hey, have fun, sounds like a good time, and a challenge. Prove us wrong! (ps - I had a STI 9mm that was so much fun to shoot I shot minor Limited with it occasionally... it was fun, and the splits were very fast.... but I found myself concentrating so hard on having to get the A's that it slowed me down enough where I really wasn't any faster on a field course that with my .40 major gun. And those (C's and D's) really hurt.) I am in no way stating that I can get away with not calling each shot and revert to "Double Tapping". Each shot must be called no matter what PF you use. What I am saying is that I can shoot faster with Minor PF loads because the sights return to an aligned state sooner since there is less recoil to manage. The other thing I want to explore is being able to do more effective one handed shooting. Shooting Minor PF loads strong hand is WAY easier than shooting Major PF loads. If I can get away with shooting some sections of a stage strong hand only with accuracy and consistency as I am hauling ass across a section of the stage then that WILL be a significant advantage over shooting Major PF rounds. With Major PF loads you really have to dig in and bear down to shoot strong hand only which eliminates any advantage to shooting that way. I am just trying to think outside the box in all aspects of shooting Minor PF loads. With a greatly reduced recoil it allows you to shoot quite differently, that is if you are open to giving it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I applaud your quest, and good luck to you sir. Have fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagger10k Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Props for trying something out of the box. Let us know how it works out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I am just trying to think outside the box in all aspects of shooting Minor PF loads. With a greatly reduced recoil it allows you to shoot quite differently, that is if you are open to giving it a try. That box was opened a long time ago, thus the suggestion that you give Matt a call, as he can be a quite motivated individual. I remember how jacked up he was on all the cool things he thought he could do without the recoil and extra rounds. He had a much different attitude right after he shot Nationals shooting Limited Minor. Theory and reality don't always meet where you think they might. You sound determined to make it work, so best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 14, 2011 Author Share Posted June 14, 2011 I am just trying to think outside the box in all aspects of shooting Minor PF loads. With a greatly reduced recoil it allows you to shoot quite differently, that is if you are open to giving it a try. That box was opened a long time ago, thus the suggestion that you give Matt a call, as he can be a quite motivated individual. I remember how jacked up he was on all the cool things he thought he could do without the recoil and extra rounds. He had a much different attitude right after he shot Nationals shooting Limited Minor. Theory and reality don't always meet where you think they might. You sound determined to make it work, so best of luck to you. I will give Matt a call and get his take on it. Thanks for the advice!!! I am still going to give it a try myself. I am like a pit bull on a pork chop when it comes to figuring things out for myself even when the answer may already be out there. The way I see it, it gives me something to try and play with all the while I get to shoot and learn. Even if I find that its not what I expected it to be, I don't think it will be wasted time on my part. I get a chance to fiddle with and shoot pistols, how can you go wrong with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 I learned to shoot before the internet had such good info, so I do believe you will learn if you go in with an open mind. You might just not learn what you think you will I think I've learned as much from doing things the "wrong way" as I have from being taught the technically correct way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 My gunsmith just sent me some pictures of the slide after doing the slide lightening. He got it down to 9.6 oz, so its not quite 9 oz on the nose but its close enough for me. With the slide starting out at 13.5 oz I knew that he was going to have to take some serious meat off of it to get it down to the 9 oz range. I think it turned out pretty good. Now its time to send it off for hard chrome...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beastfrog Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 What was the criteria that made 9 ounces the target slide weight? Is it something that has worked for you before or is there some other science behind that choice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Awesome. My .40 major slide weighs 12.8 ounces. I feel like a piggy now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHA-LEE Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 What was the criteria that made 9 ounces the target slide weight? Is it something that has worked for you before or is there some other science behind that choice? I don't have any specific "science" around using a 9oz slide. In my past experience the last time I built a 40 Minor top end for my EAA Witness Limited I had it lightened to 10oz and that still felt a little sluggish when cycling. This time around I am going to try 9oz to see if that will bring up the slide cycle speed when using lighter recoil springs. The other thing to consider is that less slide mass also equates to less weight transfer and muzzle flip as the gun cycles while shooting. Maybe 9oz will be too light? Maybe it will still be too heavy? I won't know until I get it all back together and start slinging some lead down range. This project is a really nothing more than an experiment. It could turn out well or be a complete failure. Maybe I am crazy for taking a brand new unfired M&P 40 Pro and creating a Limited Minor freak of nature out of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkCO Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 That box was opened a long time ago, thus the suggestion that you give Matt a call, as he can be a quite motivated individual. I remember how jacked up he was on all the cool things he thought he could do without the recoil and extra rounds. He had a much different attitude right after he shot Nationals shooting Limited Minor. Yep, did he not get like 5th? However, Matt's focus was on the Steel Challenge at the time and he did not want to switch guns. I shot the gun he used, and it was amazing. But he was never promoting shooting Limited Minor as a "better" solution than Limited Major. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avezorak Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Thats a LOT of weight removed. Looks awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 That box was opened a long time ago, thus the suggestion that you give Matt a call, as he can be a quite motivated individual. I remember how jacked up he was on all the cool things he thought he could do without the recoil and extra rounds. He had a much different attitude right after he shot Nationals shooting Limited Minor. Yep, did he not get like 5th? However, Matt's focus was on the Steel Challenge at the time and he did not want to switch guns. I shot the gun he used, and it was amazing. But he was never promoting shooting Limited Minor as a "better" solution than Limited Major. From the conversation I had with him, he thought he could do a some things that didn't pan out at Nationals. I didn't say he thought it would be BETTER than major. I don't know of any great shooter that has ever said that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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