Food for Thought

[Sean Gaines]

Well i'm not sure even how to start to mention the gratitude that I and many people like me have on this forum, for the fortitude and disire to give back such a weathly amount of information. Sean, what you given here in this forum is undeniably the best wealth of gold, and something that is priceless!! This life journal of experience "Sean" has given not only forum members, but the thousands whom never log in, have an account or even reply that will read, learn and benifit from it...

Sean I'm sorry I dont know who you are, but what you have given with your time, experiences and willingness to help others is beyond a "Thank You"..Reading your posts have not only enlighten me, energised me, but also helped me to understand so many areas and questions, I have always wanted to ask or know..

like you, when you started, I never had a mentor either..I would go to matches, have fun, but mostly alone..An hour drive one way..After a year or so of spending all i could afford on this sport, learn what I could on my own, i felt i was in a "rut" needing guidance, wisdom, desire and knowledge of the game and how to accel!! I wasn't able to find that comraddarie as a quiet guy and qickly left the sport the last 2 years..

Reading through all your posts, ideas, exeperinces, and knowledge you have kindly provided has now given me a new confidence and desire to start again..I cant Thank You enough...

I Thank You for being patriotic and freely given your time, knowledge, desire and love of the sport, so others can benifit and pass it on.. !!!

I will be giving back to you as you have given for me..

Thanks,

bullwind...

Wow! Thank you for the kind words. I have been taking a break from these posts, but will continue it here shortly...

[Sean Gaines]

"165/180 or 200gr bullets for .40cal"

This question gets asked alot. What bullet weight should I shoot in my limited gun. Well the answer I give, is what kinda gun do you have? How does the gun react with your current load?

For me personally, I like a certain feel in my gun. If the slide cycles in .05 of a second. I want the slide to come back, in .01 and I want it to go forward with the remaining .04 of a second. I know those are exagerated numbers but you get the point. I want the impulse in my hand to get over with as quickly as possible, and I want to start seeing that front sight. There are many variables that contribute to the way the gun is going to handle.

here are just a few.

Weight of the gun

Weight distribution on the gun as a whole

Friction on all moving parts, minimize this as much as possible.

springs, ie recoil springs, and mainspring. light/heavy

What kind of lube you are using, light, med, heavy viscosity

unlocking of the gun

Load

bullet weight/what kind of bullets

Powder

Pressure

mags tuned?

Legnth of the barrel

your grip

your stance

Changing any of these variables will change the way the gun handles...

Lets say you have a lightned 5" slide on an edge (long/heavy dust cover). First of all we must consider that the top half is light, so when the gun kicks, it is going to have no problem moving up. What you can do to counteract this is weight down the lower half of the gun,especially on the end of the gun by using tungten guide rod and reverse plug. If you are using 165 or 180gr bullets the gun will have a more snapier feel(without the tungsten rod and plug), depending on the powder charge. I am a big proponent of using heavy bullets with a small amount of powder, basically the Rob Leatham theroy of loads. Now to increase this combination, you can use lead and or Molly coated bullets, which yeild roughly 10% less powder to achieve the same velocities compared to a jacketed bullets. With the example above I would consider using 200gr bullets, maybe even a 180gr bullet. but the 200 would be my first choice. I probably wouldn't look at 165gr bullets.

Now lets say you have a 6" gun with lighten slide. First of all you are getting the extra sight radius, so the slide will come back the same amount of distance as a 5" gun, but the sight will be and inch further in front of your sight plain, as oposed to a 5" gun. Making it easier to track/shoot. Also since we are using a longer barrel the velocities should increase quite a bit. Making the Rob leatham theroy of small powder charge with heavy bullet work to its maximum performance, within the rules of our game(USPSA). And, even moreso if using lead/molly coated bullets. With this type of setup with 200gr bullets would make the slide too slow for my tastes. first of all you have an extra inch of barrel, secondly you have a small charge. Which is ideally what you want. But the extra inch of barrel, with a slower velocity bullet could make the gun feel very sluggish (1" more of bullet to travel at slower velocities). You must think of your bullets like pistons. They are being pushed through that barrel. I currently shoot a 180gr bullet behind titegroup. And is the current load that I use. The gun reacts exactly the way I want it to. 165 grain bullets would be ok, but i would have to increase my powder charge to achieve the same velocities. would be worth considering giving a try...

When choosing a bullet weight think of how your gun is setup. To use an analogy of this, think of a heavy deer rifle, the kick is practically nothing compared to a lightend gun with the same round going through it. So you can actually change the way the pistol is going to handle by taking weight off here and there. I like a lightend fast slide with a heavy bottom end, but if I were to have any weight at all on my gun it would be up the front of the gun, to try and dampen some of the upward recoil.

Also, you must remember there are alot more variables than I have mentioned in this post. experiment with different loads and find the load that will give you impulse that you are looking for. But Remember the importance of weight distribution. I am not a big proponent of heavy magwells or weighting the back of the gun. first of all you have a gun that is loaded with 20 rounds, already contributing to increased weight in the back of the gun. The gun should be thought of like a see saw. when the muzzle rises the backend lowers, so to aid this action is not really the way you want to go.

Another thing to think about that is important. There is a give and take with anything that you do to the gun. If you get the gun too heavy, your transitions, may slow down. If your gun is to light, you may have more flip. if you use heavier recoil springs your slide may come back to slow. etc etc.

Another thing to think about that has nothing to do with limited shooting, but shooting open. Placement of the lense of your cmore can be vital to the perception of recoil. Since we are thinking of our gun as a see saw. Where is the least amount of movement on a see saw? Answer: The center of the see saw. Both ends are moving the most. So placing the lense where the center axis of the gun, can give the gun less dot movement. Alot of people don't think about this, so figured I would share with the group.

Hope this helps!

See you on the range...

[Avezorak]

Awesone info as usual. See ya next week!

[Jonathan Taliani]

This is an excellent thread. Thank you for taking the time to help share your lessons learned.

[Miker]

I have read your thread several times and each time I pick up something new from it....just saved it to my favorites on my computer. I like others on here thank you for your time and efforts.

[Brian Payne]

I hope that you don't mind that a lot of your thoughts and ideas will now be carried over to my 3-gun training and shooting.

Great post, Thanks.

[assaulter]

Thanks for the info. I guess if you ever decide to write a book (and maybe you should)......all you'll have to do is cut and paste.

[L-10_shooter]

Wow how did I miss this thread? Thank you for all the fantastic info seamlessly put on "paper"!

[Dwain C. Baer]

Cool thread...indeed

[inkballedtarget]

This is a fantastic thread! The time you put into it shines through and its much appreciated.. Im only through the second page, taking notes slows me down considerably, but its well worth it.

[Sean Gaines]

"Finding a gun that you like"

Everyone gun is built differently off the assembly line, when it comes to custom pistols. When I first started shooting limited, I had a Joe Hardy long dustcover gun, that shot pretty good. I then won a gift certificate from SVI for $1k off one of their guns. So I took SVI up on the offer. I basically built the same gun, with some fancier cuts. When I got the gun, the gun was beautiful, and was very impressed with the quality of work that SVI had did for me. shooting it was a different story. Same load and everything, when I shot the SVI it felt like I was shooting factory 45 hardball ammo out of it. It kicked like a horse!

When buying a gun, you cannot go by looks alone, and you cannot just go by the gun builder either. Granted some gun builders are awesome, but it doesn't mean that the gun they build for you is going to be as flat as another one. What I would reccomend is shooting different peoples guns, and test drive a gun before you purchase it. First of all these guns are expensive, so you want to be sure it is everything you want in a gun, before you purchase. Buying guns are like buying cowboy boots. If you see a pair of ostrich boots that you like, you better buy them then and there, or you will never see a pair like them again. Every exoctic boot are different in quality and all are unique. Same goes with a custom pistol, if you shoot one and that gun is extremly flat, then you better make an offer on it. think this way, how much is it worth to you to have a flatter shooting gun. $500,$1k, $2k compared to buying a custom gun that may or may not shoot the way you like it. Personally I would spend $1k more for a gun that shot much flatter.

So the whole point of this thread is that you cannot judge a gun by its looks alone. It may look pretty and fancy on the outside, but it maybe the harshest shooting gun out there. We typically buy guns from repetable builders, and we buy according to looks. What we should be doing is test driving the gun before you purchase it. If you find one that is extremely flat, and condusive to your shooting, make an offer on it. If the guy doesn't want to sell, make sure to let him know that if you do plan on selling it, to let me know first.

Good luck

See you at the range.

[Miker]

"Finding a gun that you like"

Everyone gun is built differently off the assembly line, when it comes to custom pistols. When I first started shooting limited, I had a Joe Hardy long dustcover gun, that shot pretty good. I then won a gift certificate from SVI for $1k off one of their guns. So I took SVI up on the offer. I basically built the same gun, with some fancier cuts. When I got the gun, the gun was beautiful, and was very impressed with the quality of work that SVI had did for me. shooting it was a different story. Same load and everything, when I shot the SVI it felt like I was shooting factory 45 hardball ammo out of it. It kicked like a horse!

When buying a gun, you cannot go by looks alone, and you cannot just go by the gun builder either. Granted some gun builders are awesome, but it doesn't mean that the gun they build for you is going to be as flat as another one. What I would reccomend is shooting different peoples guns, and test drive a gun before you purchase it. First of all these guns are expensive, so you want to be sure it is everything you want in a gun, before you purchase. Buying guns are like buying cowboy boots. If you see a pair of ostrich boots that you like, you better buy them then and there, or you will never see a pair like them again. Every exoctic boot are different in quality and all are unique. Same goes with a custom pistol, if you shoot one and that gun is extremly flat, then you better make an offer on it. think this way, how much is it worth to you to have a flatter shooting gun. $500,$1k, $2k compared to buying a custom gun that may or may not shoot the way you like it. Personally I would spend $1k more for a gun that shot much flatter.

So the whole point of this thread is that you cannot judge a gun by its looks alone. It may look pretty and fancy on the outside, but it maybe the harshest shooting gun out there. We typically buy guns from repetable builders, and we buy according to looks. What we should be doing is test driving the gun before you purchase it. If you find one that is extremely flat, and condusive to your shooting, make an offer on it. If the guy doesn't want to sell, make sure to let him know that if you do plan on selling it, to let me know first.

Good luck

See you at the range.

Sean this is a very good idea but one has to be very careful trying out someones gun as it will end up costing you alot of money, because of the money you will spend on guns you cant live without. I am the perfect example of this As usual your post is spot on.

[Sean Gaines]

"Sandbagging your way to victory"

I guess you could say this is one of my pet peaves. I see it alot, I am sure you have seen it, but lets take a closer look at why its not beneficial. First of all how many major events do you shoot a year. 3 or 4? So you win 1 of the 4, or maybe you did good and win 2 of the 4. So you win a 2 frames at $350 a piece, so you essentially netted $700 in a 12 month period, so you essentially lost the credibility of all your shooting buddies for $58 a month. This sport is tight nit, we see alot of the same shooters all the time at the major events. In fact, When I goto a match, I know who to look out for when i am shooting. Do you really want to be known as the sandbagger? Is $58 a month worth it, lets say you went 4 for 4 with victories you would recieve $117 per month. but you still have to win. Also alot of shooters love to see the sandbagger lose, so you already have everyone rooting against you. You want to have all the positive energy for you. Nobody wants bad ju ju. You want to excell to the best of your ability. Also think of all the other shooters who are doing everything legit, and you are taking a victory away from them. To me, thats pretty unsportsman like and selfish. You will have to see these shooters at major events. As a sponosr of shooters, I would never have a sandbagger on my team. So if I think that, I am sure there are other sponsors that will think the same. Think of how much other goodies you could recieve that could be much more lucrative than losing a good reputation, when its so hard to gain one, and losing credibility of your fellow shooters. There is no amount of money that would make me change my view on this.

the excuses of a sandbagger. I have heard them all.

I don't shoot classifiers good?

The person shoots a good match but always throws a miss on the classifier.

doing the classifier at a slow pace, and you know they could shoot it faster

I want to move up at a major event(you could wait years for this)

I don't shoot 75% of the top gm's at major events.(usually 1 of the top shooters will shoot a stage way over 100% at major events, so you can't use this excuse)(I am a high master, and I am happy if I finish a match at 85% of a world class GM)

First, I think there should be something done at uspsa, to bump people up, if there is a bunch of complaints about a shooter. Also foreign shooters, should also be looked at in a different light also, since they don't shoot uspsa classifiers. If it obvious that a person is sandbagging, they should be bumped to the next level. Also people who shoot with sandbaggers, should remind them that they are sandbagging. There is nothing like embarrasing a sandbagger, I do it all the time. I rub it in, because I despise it, and I have higher expectations of this sport. think of all the shooters that we can possibly lose, because they cant seem to win, with all the work they put into it, and get discouraged and give up. USPSA is one of the sports that you actually compete against shooters of the same level/rank, if we plan on keeping this same system, than there needs to be oversight, and make sure that people are not abusing the system.

In summary, to win a few cracker jack toys and losing your credibility amongst your fellow shooters, is it worth to you, than by all means keep sandbagging. But you will never know what it actually feels like to do the work and then come away with a win, and that alone is a feeling that you cannot replace. I think I have alot higher expectations of this sport to think of it, as a bunch of sandbaggers all vying to be the best sandbagger. If this is the way you think of our sport, than the next time we have a hurricane come through texas, you can come by and help me sandbag my house, and I will be happy to give you some cracker jack toys for your hard work. When people sandbag, we all know who you are, you are not fooling anybody, and in the back of thier minds, you will always be known as a sandbagger. The only way you can change that is to man up and accept the challenge. Trust me it is worth it. You will have to goto the range and practice to be able to compete, and in the long run it makes you a better shooter. And if you win that way, it is a win that is more rewarding!!

Sorry for the Rant! But its one thing about this game that needs to change!

See you at the range!

[arsoncop9]

You are right. Earn a win and fight for a win. If you sandbag we will pummel you. Crush is another word.

[d_striker]

"Sandbagging your way to victory"

I guess you could say this is one of my pet peaves. I see it alot, I am sure you have seen it, but lets take a closer look at why its not beneficial. First of all how many major events do you shoot a year. 3 or 4? So you win 1 of the 4, or maybe you did good and win 2 of the 4. So you win a 2 frames at $350 a piece, so you essentially netted $700 in a 12 month period, so you essentially lost the credibility of all your shooting buddies for $58 a month. This sport is tight nit, we see alot of the same shooters all the time at the major events. In fact, When I goto a match, I know who to look out for when i am shooting. Do you really want to be known as the sandbagger? Is $58 a month worth it, lets say you went 4 for 4 with victories you would recieve $117 per month. but you still have to win. Also alot of shooters love to see the sandbagger lose, so you already have everyone rooting against you. You want to have all the positive energy for you. Nobody wants bad ju ju. You want to excell to the best of your ability. Also think of all the other shooters who are doing everything legit, and you are taking a victory away from them. To me, thats pretty unsportsman like and selfish. You will have to see these shooters at major events. As a sponosr of shooters, I would never have a sandbagger on my team. So if I think that, I am sure there are other sponsors that will think the same. Think of how much other goodies you could recieve that could be much more lucrative than losing a good reputation, when its so hard to gain one, and losing credibility of your fellow shooters. There is no amount of money that would make me change my view on this.

the excuses of a sandbagger. I have heard them all.

I don't shoot classifiers good?

The person shoots a good match but always throws a miss on the classifier.

doing the classifier at a slow pace, and you know they could shoot it faster

I want to move up at a major event(you could wait years for this)

I don't shoot 75% of the top gm's at major events.(usually 1 of the top shooters will shoot a stage way over 100% at major events, so you can't use this excuse)(I am a high master, and I am happy if I finish a match at 85% of a world class GM)

First, I think there should be something done at uspsa, to bump people up, if there is a bunch of complaints about a shooter. Also foreign shooters, should also be looked at in a different light also, since they don't shoot uspsa classifiers. If it obvious that a person is sandbagging, they should be bumped to the next level. Also people who shoot with sandbaggers, should remind them that they are sandbagging. There is nothing like embarrasing a sandbagger, I do it all the time. I rub it in, because I despise it, and I have higher expectations of this sport. think of all the shooters that we can possibly lose, because they cant seem to win, with all the work they put into it, and get discouraged and give up. USPSA is one of the sports that you actually compete against shooters of the same level/rank, if we plan on keeping this same system, than there needs to be oversight, and make sure that people are not abusing the system.

In summary, to win a few cracker jack toys and losing your credibility amongst your fellow shooters, is it worth to you, than by all means keep sandbagging. But you will never know what it actually feels like to do the work and then come away with a win, and that alone is a feeling that you cannot replace. I think I have alot higher expectations of this sport to think of it, as a bunch of sandbaggers all vying to be the best sandbagger. If this is the way you think of our sport, than the next time we have a hurricane come through texas, you can come by and help me sandbag my house, and I will be happy to give you some cracker jack toys for your hard work. When people sandbag, we all know who you are, you are not fooling anybody, and in the back of thier minds, you will always be known as a sandbagger. The only way you can change that is to man up and accept the challenge. Trust me it is worth it. You will have to goto the range and practice to be able to compete, and in the long run it makes you a better shooter. And if you win that way, it is a win that is more rewarding!!

Sorry for the Rant! But its one thing about this game that needs to change!

See you at the range!

Make classifiers more like field stages and you would see more realistic classifications for a lot of people. I'm not saying that sandbagging doesn't happen, but i think you may be prematurely writing off some people as such.

I feel like my competitive advantage comes from moving quick rather than shooting well. Confine someone like me in one shooting box, like many classifier stages do, and the game purely measures shooting skill rather than movement. Consider classifier stages with no shoots and hard cover targets and it's not hard to understand why I miss couple shots if trying to push it or shoot so slow to where I'm getting my hits but not getting a good hit factor...

I've only been at this game for about a year but I'm hooked. I don't have the experience that you do and havent seen a fraction of what you have in this sport. I just wanted to throw in my own perspective.

Edited September 13, 2011 by d_striker

[Miker]

I just started shooting USPSA in March of this year and when I got classified I made C class, since being classified Ive only shot C class in classifiers a couple of times, many times Ive been in D class bottom end of group, but usually shoot at least middle or better of the group on other 4 or 5 stages of the match. I dont do this on purpose its just that classifiers arent like the other stages like Striker said above it would be nice to make classifiers like the rest of the match instead of standing in one positon and shooting. Im no speed demon and I try to shoot all A's but when I get to classifiers its like I have no confidence and stack up no shoots and mikes. What I see in many matches is many people dont shoot classifiers as good as the other stages most seem as frustrated as me when they shoot badly. Im sure the sandbaggers are there too guess I'm maybe to new at this sport to understand why anyone would not want to shoot the match at their best....to me bottom of B class would be better than a win in C class.

[Sean Gaines]

"You can win a National Title"

Many poeple in this sport have aspirations of being a top level GM competiting with the super squad for a National Championship. But alot of people lack the facilities and the motivation or level of commitment to do what is neccessary to become a top GM. A look at the winners of the Nationals this year, should be bring good light to this point. To be a top level GM, you must be able to dedicate your life and your precious time to doing the things that you need to, to get better, and improve every aspect of your game. Alot of us have jobs, families other responsiblities that keep us from achieving this goal. It would be nice to be a professional shooter, and get paid to do what you love. Think of how good you could become if your job was to practice shooting 40 hours a week. Do you think you could compete for a National title. I think I could.

When we do something for a living we become very good at it. Think of your job, you encounter issues everyday, and at first you were not as efficient, over time your job becames easier and easier. Now if that same issue comes up, you know exactly what to do. Its no different in shooting, at first you were hesitant and with time, you have gotten better. Shooting alot of matches can steapen that learning curve and build confidence. When a top level GM goes to the match, he has expectations to win. He doesn't say, "I hope I win this match". Personally I feel some of the top GM's goto matches for practice. Look at Rob leatham, he never really goes to area matches across the country, he knows he can compete,he would rather spend his time on the practice range. Can you imagine yourself in that same type of mind frame?

To give you some light that it is possible for you to compete at that level. I remember back in 2007, Kale Garretson(GM and 7th oal finish at Prod. Nats this year) and I were competiting for the illustrious belt buckle at the Texas State limited championship for A class. I had kale by a big margin on the first day, with 4 stages left to shoot on the second day. I have brought this up to kale and he remembers. He knew he had to shoot a good match to win, and I had to fall apart for him to win. To me I had it cinched, I was already looking at belts for that belt buckle. He went in and shot the last 4 stages like a true champion. I shot the first 2 stages awesome as well, but the last 2 stages I had 2-6second jams, and Kale won the match by a hair. That loss stuck with me for a long time, because it was there, but gun problems kept me from closing escrow. Kale went on to get a bullet sponsorship, and other sponsorships to help him in his shooting. 4 years later he has won every match he has gone to this year(5 for 5), and finsihed 7th at the Production Nationals. That is one hell of a shooting season if you ask me. knowing kale, he has a work ethic that rivals no one else. While you are reading this post, he is probably dry firing. When you are playing with your kids, he is probably shooting and practicing. Kale has been driven to succeed, and he is not going to accept nothing else but a victory. This is what it takes to be a true champion in this game. A relativley unknown shooter doing the impossible. Can it happen to you, of course it can! It really depends on how much work you are willing to do to achieve your goal. Now that Kale has done all the major leg work to get to this point in his shooting career, Now he can now just work and tweak the little aspects of his game that will make him a better shooter. Also look at Ben Stoeger,a poster on this very forum, our production national champion, who would have ever betted on him winning the title before the match started? Maybe Ben himself? So it can be done, and these people should be recognized for their hard work, and it only goes to show what someone can do with a goal and the desire to achieve that goal can accomplish.

So who is the next sleeper out there? Is it you? It can be!

Edited September 30, 2011 by Sean Gaines

[beltjones]

"Sandbagging your way to victory"

I guess you could say this is one of my pet peaves. I see it alot, I am sure you have seen it, but lets take a closer look at why its not beneficial. First of all how many major events do you shoot a year. 3 or 4? So you win 1 of the 4, or maybe you did good and win 2 of the 4. So you win a 2 frames at $350 a piece, so you essentially netted $700 in a 12 month period, so you essentially lost the credibility of all your shooting buddies for $58 a month. This sport is tight nit, we see alot of the same shooters all the time at the major events. In fact, When I goto a match, I know who to look out for when i am shooting. Do you really want to be known as the sandbagger? Is $58 a month worth it, lets say you went 4 for 4 with victories you would recieve $117 per month. but you still have to win. Also alot of shooters love to see the sandbagger lose, so you already have everyone rooting against you. You want to have all the positive energy for you. Nobody wants bad ju ju. You want to excell to the best of your ability. Also think of all the other shooters who are doing everything legit, and you are taking a victory away from them. To me, thats pretty unsportsman like and selfish. You will have to see these shooters at major events. As a sponosr of shooters, I would never have a sandbagger on my team. So if I think that, I am sure there are other sponsors that will think the same. Think of how much other goodies you could recieve that could be much more lucrative than losing a good reputation, when its so hard to gain one, and losing credibility of your fellow shooters. There is no amount of money that would make me change my view on this.

the excuses of a sandbagger. I have heard them all.

I don't shoot classifiers good?

The person shoots a good match but always throws a miss on the classifier.

doing the classifier at a slow pace, and you know they could shoot it faster

I want to move up at a major event(you could wait years for this)

I don't shoot 75% of the top gm's at major events.(usually 1 of the top shooters will shoot a stage way over 100% at major events, so you can't use this excuse)(I am a high master, and I am happy if I finish a match at 85% of a world class GM)

First, I think there should be something done at uspsa, to bump people up, if there is a bunch of complaints about a shooter. Also foreign shooters, should also be looked at in a different light also, since they don't shoot uspsa classifiers. If it obvious that a person is sandbagging, they should be bumped to the next level. Also people who shoot with sandbaggers, should remind them that they are sandbagging. There is nothing like embarrasing a sandbagger, I do it all the time. I rub it in, because I despise it, and I have higher expectations of this sport. think of all the shooters that we can possibly lose, because they cant seem to win, with all the work they put into it, and get discouraged and give up. USPSA is one of the sports that you actually compete against shooters of the same level/rank, if we plan on keeping this same system, than there needs to be oversight, and make sure that people are not abusing the system.

In summary, to win a few cracker jack toys and losing your credibility amongst your fellow shooters, is it worth to you, than by all means keep sandbagging. But you will never know what it actually feels like to do the work and then come away with a win, and that alone is a feeling that you cannot replace. I think I have alot higher expectations of this sport to think of it, as a bunch of sandbaggers all vying to be the best sandbagger. If this is the way you think of our sport, than the next time we have a hurricane come through texas, you can come by and help me sandbag my house, and I will be happy to give you some cracker jack toys for your hard work. When people sandbag, we all know who you are, you are not fooling anybody, and in the back of thier minds, you will always be known as a sandbagger. The only way you can change that is to man up and accept the challenge. Trust me it is worth it. You will have to goto the range and practice to be able to compete, and in the long run it makes you a better shooter. And if you win that way, it is a win that is more rewarding!!

Sorry for the Rant! But its one thing about this game that needs to change!

See you at the range!

There is really only one way to beat a sandbagger, and that is to beat them in a match. Labeling people and "calling them out" could just make you look like a jerk.

I've been called a sandbagger exactly twice. Once when I had been shooting IDPA for exactly 6 months and had earned two class bumps in two matches. The guy who called me a sandbagger assumed I had been shooting for a lot longer. It just told me that he was a jerk and not worth my time, and I certainly don't consider him a friend to this day.

The other time was very recently after coming back from an injury. I took most of 2011 off due to a wrist problem, and only got classified in L10 a few weeks before Area 4. I still managed to do pretty well, and I might have won the match if not for 3 really bad malfunctions. After the match some idiot called me a sandbagger which was totally uncalled for. His reasoning was that I had shot minor to classify, and in his mind I was doing it in order to sandbag. The truth was that up until the match minor was the only thing my wrist could handle. I would have loved to shoot major during those classifiers - maybe I would have found out ahead of time that my L10 gun didn't run very well, and maybe I could have fixed it in time for the match.

So if you want to call someone a sandbagger that's fine, but you better know their circumstances, and you better be prepared if they take offense to your comment. Or you could simply beat them at the match and call it a day. I'll do the latter. That's just my opinion.

This is a great thread, and I thank you for it, but the "calling out sandbaggers" part struck a chord with me.

Edited September 30, 2011 by beltjones

[Sean Gaines]

"Sandbagging your way to victory"

I guess you could say this is one of my pet peaves. I see it alot, I am sure you have seen it, but lets take a closer look at why its not beneficial. First of all how many major events do you shoot a year. 3 or 4? So you win 1 of the 4, or maybe you did good and win 2 of the 4. So you win a 2 frames at $350 a piece, so you essentially netted $700 in a 12 month period, so you essentially lost the credibility of all your shooting buddies for $58 a month. This sport is tight nit, we see alot of the same shooters all the time at the major events. In fact, When I goto a match, I know who to look out for when i am shooting. Do you really want to be known as the sandbagger? Is $58 a month worth it, lets say you went 4 for 4 with victories you would recieve $117 per month. but you still have to win. Also alot of shooters love to see the sandbagger lose, so you already have everyone rooting against you. You want to have all the positive energy for you. Nobody wants bad ju ju. You want to excell to the best of your ability. Also think of all the other shooters who are doing everything legit, and you are taking a victory away from them. To me, thats pretty unsportsman like and selfish. You will have to see these shooters at major events. As a sponosr of shooters, I would never have a sandbagger on my team. So if I think that, I am sure there are other sponsors that will think the same. Think of how much other goodies you could recieve that could be much more lucrative than losing a good reputation, when its so hard to gain one, and losing credibility of your fellow shooters. There is no amount of money that would make me change my view on this.

the excuses of a sandbagger. I have heard them all.

I don't shoot classifiers good?

The person shoots a good match but always throws a miss on the classifier.

doing the classifier at a slow pace, and you know they could shoot it faster

I want to move up at a major event(you could wait years for this)

I don't shoot 75% of the top gm's at major events.(usually 1 of the top shooters will shoot a stage way over 100% at major events, so you can't use this excuse)(I am a high master, and I am happy if I finish a match at 85% of a world class GM)

First, I think there should be something done at uspsa, to bump people up, if there is a bunch of complaints about a shooter. Also foreign shooters, should also be looked at in a different light also, since they don't shoot uspsa classifiers. If it obvious that a person is sandbagging, they should be bumped to the next level. Also people who shoot with sandbaggers, should remind them that they are sandbagging. There is nothing like embarrasing a sandbagger, I do it all the time. I rub it in, because I despise it, and I have higher expectations of this sport. think of all the shooters that we can possibly lose, because they cant seem to win, with all the work they put into it, and get discouraged and give up. USPSA is one of the sports that you actually compete against shooters of the same level/rank, if we plan on keeping this same system, than there needs to be oversight, and make sure that people are not abusing the system.

In summary, to win a few cracker jack toys and losing your credibility amongst your fellow shooters, is it worth to you, than by all means keep sandbagging. But you will never know what it actually feels like to do the work and then come away with a win, and that alone is a feeling that you cannot replace. I think I have alot higher expectations of this sport to think of it, as a bunch of sandbaggers all vying to be the best sandbagger. If this is the way you think of our sport, than the next time we have a hurricane come through texas, you can come by and help me sandbag my house, and I will be happy to give you some cracker jack toys for your hard work. When people sandbag, we all know who you are, you are not fooling anybody, and in the back of thier minds, you will always be known as a sandbagger. The only way you can change that is to man up and accept the challenge. Trust me it is worth it. You will have to goto the range and practice to be able to compete, and in the long run it makes you a better shooter. And if you win that way, it is a win that is more rewarding!!

Sorry for the Rant! But its one thing about this game that needs to change!

See you at the range!

There is really only one way to beat a sandbagger, and that is to beat them in a match. Labeling people and "calling them out" could just make you look like a jerk.

I've been called a sandbagger exactly twice. Once when I had been shooting IDPA for exactly 6 months and had earned two class bumps in two matches. The guy who called me a sandbagger assumed I had been shooting for a lot longer. It just told me that he was a jerk and not worth my time, and I certainly don't consider him a friend to this day.

The other time was very recently after coming back from an injury. I took most of 2011 off due to a wrist problem, and only got classified in L10 a few weeks before Area 4. I still managed to do pretty well, and I might have won the match if not for 3 really bad malfunctions. After the match some idiot called me a sandbagger which was totally uncalled for. His reasoning was that I had shot minor to classify, and in his mind I was doing it in order to sandbag. The truth was that up until the match minor was the only thing my wrist could handle. I would have loved to shoot major during those classifiers - maybe I would have found out ahead of time that my L10 gun didn't run very well, and maybe I could have fixed it in time for the match.

So if you want to call someone a sandbagger that's fine, but you better know their circumstances, and you better be prepared if they take offense to your comment. Or you could simply beat them at the match and call it a day. I'll do the latter. That's just my opinion.

This is a great thread, and I thank you for it, but the "calling out sandbaggers" part struck a chord with me.

Well don't take offense to it, I am not calling you or anyone here a sandbagger, I call out some of the people that I have known for years that are sandbagging, a sandbagger, and they just turn to me and laugh, because the whole group knows he is doing it.

So let me rephrase what I said, so no one just accuses people of sandbaging, if you know the person, and you have that type of relationship, where you know he is guilty of sandbagging, call him a sandbagger, but if you don't know for sure, or you don't know the person, don't accuse anyone, just beat him on the field.

My whole point of that post was to not call people sandbaggers, I am just saying that its a pet peave of mine, and that uspsa ought to have something in place or oversight to monitor performance and shooter complaint regarding this matter. also foreign shooters should be looked at it, in a different light, since they do not shoot the uspsa classifiers. It was my way of venting about an issue that has been going around for a while, that I hear people complaining about.

[beltjones]

Well, to be fair, part of the reason I bristled a bit at your post is that I really dislike the concept of sandbagging as well. I can see now what you meant when you wrote about calling out sandbaggers.

Thanks again for the thread. This is great stuff.

[Chris iliff]

Sean, I agree 100%. I did spend 4 straight years at 58%, while shooting 3-4 matches a month. I have been called a "sandbagger". But, that was only by friends, who actually knew better. You couldn't pay me to blow a classifier, that's just not my deal. I want the next level ( I'm now an A in open) too much.

I know the type you talk about and don't get it. The most I've ever won was 2nd C at area 5 several years ago. Got beat by a buddy and we both made B quickly after that.

I don't know what USPSA could do about it. I'm not sure it's a huge problem. I am sure that I don't get the few I've KNOWN who have done it. I just don't get it.

I think that MENTALITY (sandbagging) isn't good over the

long haul. It's selfish at it's premise and hollow in it's reward. I think those people must be missing some maturity points. I will beat them over the long haul. They don't amount to a smirk of remembrance on my journey.

Rant off.

Again, great thread, thanks.

[CSEMARTIN]

Great thread Sean!

If you don't mind, I'd like to add a few observations I've made over the years:

Have a routine. I've seen a lot of guys come to the line and they forget their gear, their magazines aren't loaded or their ears are sitting on a table somewhere, etc.

Don't put partially full or empty magazines in your mag pouch. It'll only be a matter of time before you walk up to the line, start a course of fire and learn a lesson teh hard way. After I'm done shooting, I put any mag that isn't full in a pocket.

I like what you said about facing downrange while others are shooting. I caught a flyer once and it freaked me out. I came close to getting it in the eye.

I keep a pair of form-fitted ear plugs in my range bag. I'm a tall guy, so when I'm shooting a stage that requires me to get out of a vehicle, I take my hat off and leave my Sordins behind. I learned the hard way that your ears can come off when they hit the roof of the car you're trying to get out of.

Wash your hands before you eat. I see guys all the time at the range go to lunch after shooting all morning and eat their food with lead all over their hands. And get your lead levels checked- especially if you shoot indoors a lot.

Check your ammo and check it again. Check the primers too. When I loaded on my 650, I constantly found rounds with upside down primers.

Check your gear. The screws that adjust tension on your holster come loose.

I like what you said about changing the fiber optic Sean. I got in the routine of changing the fiber optic before every major match. Also, don't forget to check your bomar. I've had them come loose. Check your extractor frequently. They like to break and not get noticed until it's too late. Keep a fitted extractor in your range bag.

Know the limits of your gun. My gun won't finish a match without at least one minor cleaning at the safe area. I keep q-tips, a snake and CLP in my range bag and head to the safe area about every 4 stages.

Keep your mags clean too. Check your mags to make sure they drop freely. I do this before every match.

This may sound a bit anal, but I think it's a good idea to keep everything in its respective place in your range bag.

When you are downrange pasting and setting steel, pay attention. I've seen a competitor get the "stand bye" command while someone was still downrange pasting a target.

Know the rulebook inside and out. There will be times when you challenge a call. Knowing where to find a basis for your argument will come in handy.

Pay careful attention during the walk through and don't assume anything (especially if you're shooting IDPA). I've been burned on this more times than I care to admit.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, but I've always found it helpful to correlate the round count with the targets. For example, if the round count is 18 rounds, and while you are looking over the stage, you only count 16 rounds.....you're missing a target. Like Sean mentioned early, I've always found it easier (especially during a long USPSA field course), to break the stage down into clusters. At least for me, it makes it easier for me to remember where everything is. I'll tell myself something like, for example, first position 8 rounds, second position 6 rounds, third position 4 rounds. When I'm shooting, I'm thinking 8,6,4. I'm not thinking, how many targets were there in position 3?.....

If you can, show up the day before a major match and head out to the range to look over the stages. I'd consider myself an intermediate-level USPSA shooter and seeing a long USPSA field course for the first time just minutes before I'm supposed to shoot it is anxiety provoking for me.

When you're on-deck, or even when you're in the hole, get your game face on. Don't dick around until the last minute before you start planning your execution. Goofing around with your buddies when you're up next isn't going to help your performance. I remember Matt Burkett being a proponent of mental imagery. I incorporated that into my shooting and still consider it one of the most valuable tools. When I'm in the hole, I'll close my eyes and rehearse what I'm going to do in my mind over and over again. It does help.

Again, great post Sean. I've really enjoyed reading all of this and really appreciate the time and effort you've put into this thread.

[Sean Gaines]

Great thread Sean!

If you don't mind, I'd like to add a few observations I've made over the years:

Have a routine. I've seen a lot of guys come to the line and they forget their gear, their magazines aren't loaded or their ears are sitting on a table somewhere, etc.

Don't put partially full or empty magazines in your mag pouch. It'll only be a matter of time before you walk up to the line, start a course of fire and learn a lesson teh hard way. After I'm done shooting, I put any mag that isn't full in a pocket.

I like what you said about facing downrange while others are shooting. I caught a flyer once and it freaked me out. I came close to getting it in the eye.

I keep a pair of form-fitted ear plugs in my range bag. I'm a tall guy, so when I'm shooting a stage that requires me to get out of a vehicle, I take my hat off and leave my Sordins behind. I learned the hard way that your ears can come off when they hit the roof of the car you're trying to get out of.

Wash your hands before you eat. I see guys all the time at the range go to lunch after shooting all morning and eat their food with lead all over their hands. And get your lead levels checked- especially if you shoot indoors a lot.

Check your ammo and check it again. Check the primers too. When I loaded on my 650, I constantly found rounds with upside down primers.

Check your gear. The screws that adjust tension on your holster come loose.

I like what you said about changing the fiber optic Sean. I got in the routine of changing the fiber optic before every major match. Also, don't forget to check your bomar. I've had them come loose. Check your extractor frequently. They like to break and not get noticed until it's too late. Keep a fitted extractor in your range bag.

Know the limits of your gun. My gun won't finish a match without at least one minor cleaning at the safe area. I keep q-tips, a snake and CLP in my range bag and head to the safe area about every 4 stages.

Keep your mags clean too. Check your mags to make sure they drop freely. I do this before every match.

This may sound a bit anal, but I think it's a good idea to keep everything in its respective place in your range bag.

When you are downrange pasting and setting steel, pay attention. I've seen a competitor get the "stand bye" command while someone was still downrange pasting a target.

Know the rulebook inside and out. There will be times when you challenge a call. Knowing where to find a basis for your argument will come in handy.

Pay careful attention during the walk through and don't assume anything (especially if you're shooting IDPA). I've been burned on this more times than I care to admit.

I'm not sure if this was mentioned or not, but I've always found it helpful to correlate the round count with the targets. For example, if the round count is 18 rounds, and while you are looking over the stage, you only count 16 rounds.....you're missing a target. Like Sean mentioned early, I've always found it easier (especially during a long USPSA field course), to break the stage down into clusters. At least for me, it makes it easier for me to remember where everything is. I'll tell myself something like, for example, first position 8 rounds, second position 6 rounds, third position 4 rounds. When I'm shooting, I'm thinking 8,6,4. I'm not thinking, how many targets were there in position 3?.....

If you can, show up the day before a major match and head out to the range to look over the stages. I'd consider myself an intermediate-level USPSA shooter and seeing a long USPSA field course for the first time just minutes before I'm supposed to shoot it is anxiety provoking for me.

When you're on-deck, or even when you're in the hole, get your game face on. Don't dick around until the last minute before you start planning your execution. Goofing around with your buddies when you're up next isn't going to help your performance. I remember Matt Burkett being a proponent of mental imagery. I incorporated that into my shooting and still consider it one of the most valuable tools. When I'm in the hole, I'll close my eyes and rehearse what I'm going to do in my mind over and over again. It does help.

Again, great post Sean. I've really enjoyed reading all of this and really appreciate the time and effort you've put into this thread.

Some Good Points Chris!

[Sean Gaines]

"Motivation comes from within"

I think we have gone over the fact that in order to get better at this sport its going to take time, and alot of hard work on your part. You must be able to motivate yourself to do better, you must want it.. Remember when you were in High School when you played football or any sport, the coach would give you "the talk" before the game. Basically he would give you a talk to get the team all rallied up, and it worked!! But the problem is his speach would rally you for about 15-30 minutes, then after that you defaulted to your normal motivation level. A person can motivate you to a higher degree, and it will only last a short time. Unless its a life or death scenario, we usually do things at our normal comfort level. The rest of the time, you have to find motivation, where it may or may not be.

In order to reach a higher level of motivation, something needs to happen to you. Whether it be a loss, that really hurt bad, and you say to yourself. I am never going to let this happen again. Usually its something that hurts your ego, or something that you are just fed up with that brings that internal motivation to occur. personally I feel the ego bruising,usually works the best. But everyone is different. But there has to be a motivator in order to light that flame and get you out there practicing and working to get better. If you ask a GM what was it, that motivated you to get better. I am sure there is one or two things that prompted them to do the work to get to that level. Shooting is a skill, its not something that we are born to do. Its something we learn how to do, and some learn faster than others. Some people need to work harder in order to compete, and some people don't need to work as hard to make it happen. Thats just life, and our mentality and possibly our up bringing.

When I talk about motivation in this post, I am referring to the motivation to do what it takes to get better. If I were to make a comment to someone like, "you are horrible, you cannot shoot, you have no skills whatsover" possibly in front of everyone in a match, and everyone gets a good laugh at it. First of all I would have to be a jerk to do this, but this will either make the person goto a cave and hide, or shoot me! lol, or he may say screw this, I am going to go home and to the practice range and work my tail off and show those people that I belong here. That would be my version of an ego bruising motivator. And when this happens, watch out, that person will probabaly come back shooting alot better than you thought he could or ever would. Another example is if you goto a match that you have been working hard before, and you lose, and that loss hurt you internally. It can motivate you to go out and work harder.

The other type of motivator, is wanting something so bad that you will do anything to get it. Unfortunately there are alot of people wanting the same goal as you, and that is to win! but at the same time, thats what makes competition in general great! this is a good motivator, and a healthy one. When people have a goal to achieve and they achieve that goal, there is a satisfaction! After you have reached your goal, you need to set new ones. So lets say you win the National title, and you accomplish your goal, so does this mean you should retire and stop? I guess you could, if thats all you want. Personally it wouldn't be fair to everyone else, because everyone wants to compete against the best, and beat the best.

Anyways thats all I have to say about motivation right now. I am sure we will touch on some other aspects of this later on.

see you on the range!

[CSEMARTIN]

I would be really interested to hear what has motivated others here. For me, when I first started shooting, I would keep all my second place ribbons in my range bag. And on the back, there is a little piece of paper where the MD's would write down your time. I'd add the name of the dude that beat me. I'd also write down the time difference between my score and the first place finisher. The really close races motivated me the most. I remember winning a Division Championshiop by .12 seconds. I don't remember who came in second, but I'll bet he remembers how it all went down.

Sean, what are you thoughts on developing your mental game? I've alwasy considered it a strength of mine, but how do you teach someone to develop their mental game?

You are a very introspective guy Sean. Please keep sharing. This is a great thread! And it's another perfect example of why this forum is the best on the internet.