Virginia Count Scoring - Clarification Needed

[PKT1106]

Hey Guys- I started shooting USPSA about a year ago and ever since my first Virginia Count clssifier, have had a question. Lets say we are doing classifier 06-03, Can You Count. After performing both strings, the shooter engaged each target with 5 shots, there are no extra shots taken and the shooter performed the mandatory reloads. During the scoring, it is found that 2 targets have mikes (i know the targets are 5 feet away, just go with it).

My question lies with the mikes. Why does the shooter get miss penalties (-10) as well as the lost points from the mikes? Shouldn't the shooter just lose the points from the mikes? If you quote 9.4.4:

"Each miss will be penalized twice the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of Fixed Time or disappearing targets (see Rules 9.2.4.4 and 9.9.2)."

If this is the case, shouldn't there be miss penalties for Comstock as well (because 9.4.4 only exempts Fixedtime and dissappearing targets)?

I am confused further by 10.2.2 which states(in part):

"Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)"

This tells me that is a shooter misses, they should only get the lost points and not a procedural.

I know Virginia Count has been discussed, but I still can't get it straight in my head why a shooter should lose points for not hitting the target and get a 10 point penalty, even though they fired the stated COF.

[GrumpyOne]

Hey Guys- I started shooting USPSA about a year ago and ever since my first Virginia Count clssifier, have had a question. Lets say we are doing classifier 06-03, Can You Count. After performing both strings, the shooter engaged each target with 5 shots, there are no extra shots taken and the shooter performed the mandatory reloads. During the scoring, it is found that 2 targets have mikes (i know the targets are 5 feet away, just go with it).

My question lies with the mikes. Why does the shooter get miss penalties (-10) as well as the lost points from the mikes? Shouldn't the shooter just lose the points from the mikes? If you quote 9.4.4: "Each miss will be penalized twice the value of the maximum scoring hit available on that target, except in the case of Fixed Time or disappearing targets (see Rules 9.2.4.4 and 9.9.2)." Did the shooter hit the target? No, therefore the point penalty (you don't hit it, you get no points). Since it is Virginia count, any extra shots are penalties, so if he/she were to fire extra rounds to make up the misses, you'd still get penalized. So if you fired the required number of rounds, missed some, you get no points for the non hits, and get minus points for the misses (technically, you aren't getting minus points for the misses, you are getting procedurals since by missing, you didn't follow the WSB....

If this is the case, shouldn't there be miss penalties for Comstock as well (because 9.4.4 only exempts Fixedtime and dissappearing targets)? In Comstock, it's only a miss if you fail to hit it, since there is no set number of rounds (you can fire at it 20 times if you like, and only hit it two times (2 Alpha's) and you get the points for the the 2A, but you lose time.

I am confused further by 10.2.2 which states(in part):

"Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)"

This tells me that is a shooter misses, they should only get the lost points and not a procedural. This is out of context for the question you are asking. If they didn't fire the required amount of rounds....Not if they fired the required amount of rounds and had misses....

I know Virginia Count has been discussed, but I still can't get it straight in my head why a shooter should lose points for not hitting the target and get a 10 point penalty, even though they fired the stated COF.

Edited May 22, 2011 by GrumpyOne

[Poppa Bear]

How about if it is explained this way.

We will take ONE of the targets for "Can You Count" You can have a max of 5 scoring hits at 5 points each for 25 points total. If you have 4 Alphas and 1 Mike you have 20 points because you lost an Alpha hit (-5) PLUS you have a 10 point penalty for the miss (-10) which leaves you with 10 points total for the target. So on a Virginia Count stage each miss is actually worth -15 points because of the miss AND the penalty being combined.

If it were Comstock you could make up the miss without penalty, but would still lose 15 points if you did not make up the miss.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Poppa Bear

[mactiger]

You aren't reading the rule right. Misses are penalized at -10 points in both Virginia and Comstock scoring. There are no extra penalties in Virginia count for misses, you just aren't allowed to shoot more than the specified number of rounds, as opposed to Comstock, where you can shoot all you want to, and theoretically, pick up any misses on the targets. So, in your example, the targets would be scored as " x number of A,B,C, and D hits, and one mike" on the ones with insufficient hits. If this were a comstock stage, with two hits per target scored, and there is a mike, that target is scored in the same way: "one (ABCD) hit, one mike", and in both cases, the miss is penalized at -10 points. There is no difference in miss penalties.

You are correct in your statement that the shooter does not get the points he may have earned with a hit, and in addition earns a 10 point penalty.

The catch in Virginia count scoring is the prescribed number of rounds to be fired. A competitor can earn two penalties for the same action in this scoring system, and here's how. The COF calls for 12 rounds only, and he fires 13. That's an extra shot penalty, and is assessed at the shooting position. Then, when the targets are scored, one of them has too many hits (because Virginia count says, "you may only fire x number of rounds, and there may only be x number of hits on the target"). That's an extra hit penalty, and is assessed at the target. So, one action, two penalties. If there are misses, those are penalized at -10 points, but that's the regular penalty for misses. Note also that hits in hard cover are not penalized as extra hits, and if there are hits on No-Shoot targets, they are penalized as No-Shoots, not extra hits. Extra hits only count on scoring paper targets.

What the rule you are quoting (10.2.2) says is that there is no additional penalty for not firing the required number of rounds, because that is penalized by misses on the target, not an additional procedural penalty. IOW, the COF calls for 12 rounds, the competitor only fires 11. He is going to have a miss penalty, but does not get penalized for not firing all 12 rounds. The miss covers that.

Hope this helps.

Troy

[Joe4d]

USPSA isnt scored points down, or time plus,

Not getting the points for missis isnt a penalty, you just dont get the points, If a field goal kicker kicks and misses he doenst get penalized he just doesnt get the points.

You are reading into the scoring thinking on 60 point stage everyone "gets" 60 points then penalties are deducted. This is false, before you shoot you have zero points you "get" the points you hit. Now penalties like procedurals and miss penalties are deducted from your earned total. This goes back to our roots in Practicle, defensive and offensive shooting, a hit anywhere on the bad guy may be marginal but it is still a hit, a complete miss not only doesnt get the bad guy, but now you have a stray round heading down range somewhere possibly hitting someone or thing that was unintended. SO a complete miss is much worse than simply not hitting the target and is reflected as such in our scoring system. Well at least in Virginia Count,

Comstock u get the miss penalty, cause geeze man you had all the ammo you wanted and still couldnt hit him ?

Edited May 22, 2011 by Joe4d

[PKT1106]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I would need to see where in the explanations for Virginia Count in the rule book it explicitly states all shots fired must hit the target. Is that what 9.2.3.1 is saying with the "stipulated number of hits per target"?

Also, for comstock, if I engage a target and get A-M, you are saying I should get 5pts for the A and -10 for the mike if the scoring is best 2 hits per target?

[Poppa Bear]

Thanks for the replies. I guess I would need to see where in the explanations for Virginia Count in the rule book it explicitly states all shots fired must hit the target. Is that what 9.2.3.1 is saying with the "stipulated number of hits per target"?

Also, for comstock, if I engage a target and get A-M, you are saying I should get 5pts for the A and -10 for the mike if the scoring is best 2 hits per target?

Yep the final score would be -5 for the target. Now if you take a make up shot and even score a D hit you get either 6 or 7 points for the target based on Major or Minor scoring so even if you are shooting minor making up that miss will add minimum of 11 points to your score just by making up the miss.

[coldchar]

USPSA isnt scored points down, or time plus,

Not getting the points for missis isnt a penalty, you just dont get the points, If a field goal kicker kicks and misses he doenst get penalized he just doesnt get the points.

You are reading into the scoring thinking on 60 point stage everyone "gets" 60 points then penalties are deducted. This is false, before you shoot you have zero points you "get" the points you hit. Now penalties like procedurals and miss penalties are deducted from your earned total. This goes back to our roots in Practicle, defensive and offensive shooting, a hit anywhere on the bad guy may be marginal but it is still a hit, a complete miss not only doesnt get the bad guy, but now you have a stray round heading down range somewhere possibly hitting someone or thing that was unintended. SO a complete miss is much worse than simply not hitting the target and is reflected as such in our scoring system. Well at least in Virginia Count,

Comstock u get the miss penalty, cause geeze man you had all the ammo you wanted and still couldnt hit him ?

He nailed it, occasionally,, very occasionally, our practical roots show up

Jim G

[Schutzenmeister]

One other way to look at the situation you describe is this:

- You "earn" points by hitting the scoring area of a target. ABCD, Major or minor determines how many. If you don't hit the scoring area with a given shot, you cannot earn any points for it. Another way to think of it is the "earned" points for a shot which misses the target = 0.

- You are "penalized" points for not having the required minimum hits on a given target. This applies to CS and VC, but not FT. These are scored as "Mikes", or a miss.

- You are "penalized" points for having more than the prescribed number of hits on a given target in either VC or FT. These are scored as "Extra Hits."

- You are "penalized" points for firing too many rounds in a VC or FT course of fire. As Troy already stated, these are assesed at the shooting line before you even go down range to score your hits/misses.

Once your "net" points for the stage are determined we divide them by your time to get a Hit Factor. (i.e., "Points per Second")

I would encourage you (or anyone, for that matter) to take the Level I RO class when one comes to your area. Even if you are not really interested in officiating it does clarify the rules quite well and can help improve your game.

[TeleMark]

Additional clarification, if possible...

Does the X number of shots = X number of hits apply to the ENTIRE scoring area, rather than the individual targets? Where I'm going is, lets say you have a WSD indicating that you fire 2 shots each at two targets. In the COF, the shooter fires 4 shots total. When scored, he has 1 hit on target 1, and 3 hits on target two. He has the same TOTAL number of hits as shots specified, but they are not distributed the way expected. Is the 3rd hit on the target considered an "extra" hit? I would think not, but it's not completely clear in the rule book.

[Nik Habicht]

Additional clarification, if possible...

Does the X number of shots = X number of hits apply to the ENTIRE scoring area, rather than the individual targets? Where I'm going is, lets say you have a WSD indicating that you fire 2 shots each at two targets. In the COF, the shooter fires 4 shots total. When scored, he has 1 hit on target 1, and 3 hits on target two. He has the same TOTAL number of hits as shots specified, but they are not distributed the way expected. Is the 3rd hit on the target considered an "extra" hit? I would think not, but it's not completely clear in the rule book.

Extra shots are scored on the line in Virginia Count or Fixed Time; extra shots are scored on the target....

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified [per target] in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or noshoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

The rule would probably read a little cleaner with the two words I added in red. We need the sentence because especially in Virginia Count stages we often have a round count per target other than 2. In the scenario you presented, assuming that the targets were wide open (no hardcover, no no-shoots) the score would be: T1 - one hit, one miss; T2 - best two hits, one extra hit.....

[spanky]

You aren't being penalized 15 points per mike, you are being penalized 10 and you are receiving 5 less for not getting an alpha.

[coldchar]

Additional clarification, if possible...

Does the X number of shots = X number of hits apply to the ENTIRE scoring area, rather than the individual targets? Where I'm going is, lets say you have a WSD indicating that you fire 2 shots each at two targets. In the COF, the shooter fires 4 shots total. When scored, he has 1 hit on target 1, and 3 hits on target two. He has the same TOTAL number of hits as shots specified, but they are not distributed the way expected. Is the 3rd hit on the target considered an "extra" hit? I would think not, but it's not completely clear in the rule book.

Extra shots are scored on the line in Virginia Count or Fixed Time; extra shots are scored on the target....

Or extra shots are scored on the line and extra "Hits" are scoe on the target

Jim G

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified [per target] in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or noshoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

The rule would probably read a little cleaner with the two words I added in red. We need the sentence because especially in Virginia Count stages we often have a round count per target other than 2. In the scenario you presented, assuming that the targets were wide open (no hardcover, no no-shoots) the score would be: T1 - one hit, one miss; T2 - best two hits, one extra hit.....

[Nik Habicht]

Additional clarification, if possible...

Does the X number of shots = X number of hits apply to the ENTIRE scoring area, rather than the individual targets? Where I'm going is, lets say you have a WSD indicating that you fire 2 shots each at two targets. In the COF, the shooter fires 4 shots total. When scored, he has 1 hit on target 1, and 3 hits on target two. He has the same TOTAL number of hits as shots specified, but they are not distributed the way expected. Is the 3rd hit on the target considered an "extra" hit? I would think not, but it's not completely clear in the rule book.

Extra shots are scored on the line in Virginia Count or Fixed Time; extra shots are scored on the target....

9.4.5.2 Extra hits (i.e. hits on the scoring area of scoring paper targets in excess of the total number specified [per target] in the stage), will each incur one procedural penalty. Note that hits on hard cover and/or noshoots are not treated as Extra Hits.

The rule would probably read a little cleaner with the two words I added in red. We need the sentence because especially in Virginia Count stages we often have a round count per target other than 2. In the scenario you presented, assuming that the targets were wide open (no hardcover, no no-shoots) the score would be: T1 - one hit, one miss; T2 - best two hits, one extra hit.....

As ColdChar correctly points out: Extra shots are scored on the line, extra hits are scored on the targets. Sorry about that....

[Graham Smith]

I had a lot of trouble with this myself. Think of it this way - regardless of what happens down range, the number of shots fired is strictly based on the number of times the gun goes bank. And, regardless of how many times the gun went bank, the number of hits is strictly based on what you see on the targets. These are two completely different things that, in essence, have nothing to do with each other which is why they are scored separately.

[TeleMark]

I had a lot of trouble with this myself. Think of it this way - regardless of what happens down range, the number of shots fired is strictly based on the number of times the gun goes bank. And, regardless of how many times the gun went bank, the number of hits is strictly based on what you see on the targets. These are two completely different things that, in essence, have nothing to do with each other which is why they are scored separately.

Yeah, I finally reconciled that... It was more that the rule was (to me, anyway) vague on whether it was the total number of hit on ALL the targets, or the hits PER target...

[Nik Habicht]

I had a lot of trouble with this myself. Think of it this way - regardless of what happens down range, the number of shots fired is strictly based on the number of times the gun goes bank. And, regardless of how many times the gun went bank, the number of hits is strictly based on what you see on the targets. These are two completely different things that, in essence, have nothing to do with each other which is why they are scored separately.

Yeah, I finally reconciled that... It was more that the rule was (to me, anyway) vague on whether it was the total number of hit on ALL the targets, or the hits PER target...

9.2.3 might help a little also:

9.2.3 “Virginia Count” – Unlimited time stops on the last shot, limited number of shots to be fired, stipulated number of hits per target to count for score.

[Graham Smith]

Yeah, I finally reconciled that... It was more that the rule was (to me, anyway) vague on whether it was the total number of hit on ALL the targets, or the hits PER target...

Hmmm... Just to be sure I understand it, it's counted on a per target basis.

Assume the COF requires four shots on each of two targets. There are 3 hits on one and 5 hits on the other. You score three hits and one miss on the first, and four hits and one extra hit on the second. So, even though you fired the correct number of shots and the total hits were OK, there were still penalties because they were not 'distributed' correctly.

Edited July 18, 2011 by Graham Smith

[aztecdriver]

Yeah, I finally reconciled that... It was more that the rule was (to me, anyway) vague on whether it was the total number of hit on ALL the targets, or the hits PER target...

Hmmm... Just to be sure I understand it, it's counted on a per target basis.

Assume the COF requires four shots on each of two targets. There are 3 hits on one and 5 hits on the other. You score three hits and one miss on the first, and four hits and one extra hit on the second. So, even though you fired the correct number of shots and the total hits were OK, there were still penalties because they were not 'distributed' correctly.

Correct