Do you ever feel like your chasing your tail?

[jn_fsu]

Thumbless Monkey? check

Rifle? check

Ammo? check

Cleaning and maintenance equipment? check

Rifle case? check

Optics...? NO check

So here begins the chase...

I set out to find the right optics for me as a begining shooter and for entry level competition (tactical style, 3gun,etc). So I first learned the basics of the scope and how they work... sorta. But I'm still learning. So I began researching,reading, learning,deciding and undeciding, Thats the thing every time I find what "I think" will work for me I find something else i think will work better. Hence my saying chasing my tail.

I started off thinking the Nikon M223 1-4x20 was the one for me. Then I read up on the Burris Fullfield TAC30 1x4x24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 and decided that would better suit me. Now I found the Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ. Which now I think would be better choice then the Burris. I'm not sure what to choose now. I feel like they all would work to start but then I don't want to waste my money either. I know as time goes by I'll become a more experienced shooter and new stuff comes out i'll probably want to change or upgrade. Thats fine! I have a summer build in the works and any of these would work great or even better for it. So part of my thought was I would just swap over as I changed or upgraded.

So am I putting too much thought in this or have I just not reached that point where i can make a sound decision because I lack knowledge and experience with scopes period?

But I have to begin some where right?

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Any thoughts on the above mentioned scopes, any other scopes or constructive suggestions on how to tackle this delima/situation?

Here are the links to each scope

Nikon M223 1-4x20 M-223 1-4x20 from Nikon

Burris Fullfield TAC30 1x4x24 Ballistic CQ 5.56 Burris Fullfield TAC30 Riflescopes

Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ Vortex Optics - Viper HS 1-4x24 TMCQ Illuminated Reticle

Thanks-Jason

[SinistralRifleman]

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Why not just get an Aimpoint and shoot in Tac-Limited.

[assaulter]

There are advantages and disadvantages to all those scopes and any one of them will get you going just fine. Start with one and master it. You will learn what YOU like and dislike. Take that information and either stick with what you have or change to something that suits you better. If the Viper PST had been out last fall, I would have bought that over the Burris. However, I have had the chance to shoot the Burris out to 560 yards and I love the FOV, clarity, and the BDC. I've worked out the dope for three different types of ammo and I have a good feel for where they will hit. For ME, I don't feel the need to change right now. Like others will tell you, practicing with what you have is more valuable than anything else. I think any of those will get you going just fine. I would prefer a PST over the HS though.

[mpeltier]

Buy em all. Sell what you don't like. Money well spent.

[whistlepig]

If you have the chance to try out or look at gear in person (hopefully at the range) really look to see if YOU like it. Some of the gee-whiz go fast stuff just won't suit every person, no matter how cool or expensive. I have a little bit of nice gear, but have actually passed on buying some items after trying it out and realizing that it just wasn't for me. My low power optic? I love love love it. If I bragged about my pick, half would cheer and half would jeer. Figure out which ones fit the task, then pick the one out of those that works for you the best.

[AlamoShooter]

you may as well get used to the Feeling, most shooters are always looking for the next change , the next new load , next new barrel, next new gun.

I suggest you find a good buy on a used optic.

I don't think your going to find too many used Vortex scopes though.

Benelli2 had a vortex in classified and it did not last one day

Edited May 14, 2011 by AlamoShooter

[Shadowrider]

I was in the same rut you are. I went with the Bushnell Elite 4200 1.25X4 because is had the 30mm tube, the German #4 reticle and it was on sale at a pretty steep discount. I was replacing an Aimpoint Comp M2 with a 4mil dot and I wasn't crazy about the TAC 30's reticle with that big dot in the middle. Kind of defeated the purpose for me changing and I was dead set on a 1mil dot after looking through a Trijicon TR24. And the Bushnell has very nice glass and costs wayyyyyyy less than that Trij that I drooled all over. Any of those you list will work, but I'd really try to stay with a 30mm tube.

[jn_fsu]

Yea I'm definately looking at sticking with 30mm tube. I can get the Burris TAC30 around $270 and a American Defense Recon mount around $150. Which would be more with in my set budget. I'm know buying quality glass is important but I also want money for ammo and range time which is what I need most. The scope is more of a want then a necessity at this point.

[aheadofthecurve]

tac30!

If you dont have em already, its worth getting a free float handguard and a decent barrel.

Edited May 14, 2011 by aheadofthecurve

[jn_fsu]

I've built the rifle already it's pictured at the bottom in my signature. I running a BCM 16" SS410 (stainless steel) barrel, 1/8 twist, Nato Match chambered (USMC SAM-R. I currently have a troy 9" TRX standard (free float) battlerail on it. I ordered a Troy 9" TRX Extreme (free float) rail which I'll swap out my current one with. The front end feels a little heavy and the new rail will shave roughly half a pound off the front end weight wise. I will use the current rail on my summer build. It's the only part of the build I've had to change so far. Hopefully nothing else until much later if at all. Only time will tell...

[Alaskapopo]

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Why not just get an Aimpoint and shoot in Tac-Limited.

Aimpoints are not cheap and in my opinion shooting a good variable is more fun because it allows you to use the rifle to its potential. A red dot is great for close stuff but you lose on long range targets.

Pat

[Jesse Tischauser]

All of the optics you mention will work fine. There is no perfect option out there. Buy one, try it, sell it on the classifieds. Figuring out what works for you is half the fun of 3 gun.

[carbon9]

That is exactly why I built another upper with 20" barrel and iron sights What I really want in a scope isn't really out there. I sure wish Trijicon would put a clean BDC reticle in their TR24 series and the new Leica might make the cut when it finally comes out but............ Or you could do Tac Limited with the Leupold Prismatic DCD for about the same price as the other scopes you mentioned. Yep, you'll read yourself crazy. Buy something, shoot more, with more experience you will have a baseline for what you really need out of a scope or that you don't even need one. If you keep your 16" barrel the only other suggestion I would make is to not only get a free float handguard but get at least a rifle length or extra long(14-15") handguard. Return the rail you ordered if you can. It allows you more working space for your grip in all types of positions and also helps keep you from resting your barrel on a prop and thus shifting your point of aim. I see it at least once at every match with the shorter handguards. Remember, the main thing is to have fun doing and learning all of this.

[jn_fsu]

I wanted a longer handguard but then I have spend even more money getting low pro gas block and front sight to replace my current A2 sight. I find that I just keep spending money and not shooting. So im going run with this and evaluate the set up and go from there. Maybe swap to 18 inch barrel later on. Just ready to go shoot! But I'll definately keep what you said in mind.

[aheadofthecurve]

Yep...run what you have. The barrel and free float are good for now. Once the optic comes in you are good to go. Just remember--don't rest that barrel on anything when firing! It will move your zero...prop it up on your handguard.

I wanted a longer handguard but then I have spend even more money getting low pro gas block and front sight to replace my current A2 sight. I find that I just keep spending money and not shooting. So im going run with this and evaluate the set up and go from there. Maybe swap to 18 inch barrel later on. Just ready to go shoot! But I'll definately keep what you said in mind.

[SinistralRifleman]

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Why not just get an Aimpoint and shoot in Tac-Limited.

Aimpoints are not cheap and in my opinion shooting a good variable is more fun because it allows you to use the rifle to its potential. A red dot is great for close stuff but you lose on long range targets.

Pat

When he said "training tool" I assume he meant something for shooting tactical rifle classes as well. The way his rifle is set up it looks like that is more his intent than 3-gun. Anything with limited eye relief will be limiting in different ways, we normally don't encounter in 3 Gun. Fortunately Tac-Limited/Tac-Iron now gives people with normal home defense/duty carbines a place to play and be competitive with red dots.

Used aimpoints can be found for less than ~400 with mounts regularly.

[jn_fsu]

When he said "training tool" I assume he meant something for shooting tactical rifle classes as well. The way his rifle is set up it looks like that is more his intent than 3-gun. Anything with limited eye relief will be limiting in different ways, we normally don't encounter in 3 Gun. Fortunately Tac-Limited/Tac-Iron now gives people with normal home defense/duty carbines a place to play and be competitive with red dots.

Used aimpoints can be found for less than ~400 with mounts regularly.

Yet another option...

I could get a new Aimpoint C3 2moa and American Defense 68H quick release mount for $489 from Aimsurplus.com . But I was thinking a scope would be a better training tool. Eventually I would like to get into 3 gun. But I still need a shotgun for that... On the other hand the Aimpoint would still have a home on my summer build rifle when I decided to switch.

[Jadeslade]

OK. Trijicon TR24R. No batteries. Best scope for 3 Gun. German #4 reticles too busy. you want light,fast, and accurate. Try to keep the rifle around 7lbs.DVC. No more chasing tail. Burris, Nikon, etc are for nonserious plinking.

[jn_fsu]

DVC? Whats that stand for?

[ninemmbill]

DVC? Whats that stand for?

This:

USPSA

[MarkCO]

I have used all of the ones you listed, plus about 10 more in the 1-4x range. Sorry Jadeslade...the TR24 is nice, but not even close to the best. A quick breakdown of the features of the three listed by the OP, best first.

Glass: Vortex, Burris, Nikon

Illumination: Burris, Vortex

Weight: Nikon, Vortex, Burris

Reticle: Burris, Vortex, Nikon

Light Transmission: Burris, Vortex, Nikon

Eye Releif: Burris, Vortex, Nikon

FOV: Burris, Vortex, Nikon

The Nikon is a 1" tube, the eye releif is tight and there is no illumination. The reticle is okay and fairly fast, but glass is not as good as the other two.

The Vortex has great glass (a tad better than the Burris), but has really dim illumination. The reticle is a bit cluttered and fine in detail. On the last three features, the Vortex and Burris are essentially equal for all practical purposes: 1% more light, a bit more eye releif and 2 more feet on the FOV. The reticle is my bigest gripe on the Vortex...too much clutter. That is why I went from the Burris XTR to the Tac30.

If you want to go better than the Tac30 (and 5x times the price or more), IMHO, there are two scopes to look at: Swarovski Z6i, Vortex Razor HD. A BDC reticle is becoming more and more important, and the reticles that offer no think speed are going to be the easiest to use.

[mpeltier]

I would have to agree with jadeslade on this one. But based on personal preferance only. The TR24R is an exceptional 3-gun scope. I too have tried most of the scopes out there and have found that in the realm of high end scopes, the glass quality and light transmission is excellant in all of them. In side by side comparison between my Trijicon, Burris, Swarovski, and Meopta, the only discernable differance was that the swaro was a little bit brighter when it was almost totally dark out. Not really that relevant for a 3-gun scope in my opinion. Field of view is also not an issue as its virtually identical in all 4x scopes with a 24mm tube. published data asside they all give a field of view that is as good as it gets for a 1-4 scope. What it really boils down to are the reticle itself and the brightness of the reticle. Thes are absolutely going to be a personal preferance and have nothing to do with which one is best. There is no such thing. All scopes are a compromise somewhere, you just need to evaluate your needs and purchase accordingly. It will most likely end up in several purchases bfore you find the one thats right for you.

[Neomonk21]

So am I putting too much thought in this or have I just not reached that point where i can make a sound decision because I lack knowledge and experience with scopes period?

But I have to begin some where right?

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Any thoughts on the above mentioned scopes, any other scopes or constructive suggestions on how to tackle this delima/situation?

Thanks-Jason

I'm in the same boat as you and feel the exact same way. I'm torn between the Burris TAC30 and the Leatherwood CMR. I like the turrets and reticle of the CMR, but the TAC30 is daylight visible and appears to be more "set-it-and-forget-it" kind of scope.

[Doug H.]

So am I putting too much thought in this or have I just not reached that point where i can make a sound decision because I lack knowledge and experience with scopes period?

But I have to begin some where right?

The other thing is I'm trying to make this a good training tool as well.

Any thoughts on the above mentioned scopes, any other scopes or constructive suggestions on how to tackle this delima/situation?

Thanks-Jason

I'm in the same boat as you and feel the exact same way. I'm torn between the Burris TAC30 and the Leatherwood CMR. I like the turrets and reticle of the CMR, but the TAC30 is daylight visible and appears to be more "set-it-and-forget-it" kind of scope.

Be carefull with a scope that has uncovered turrets, like the CMR, they can get moved when the gun is abandonded and you'll loose your zero. I saw a guy at the MG nats last year go shot for shot on a rifle plate rack then have to reshoot. Only minutes later he used 2 full mags and didn't get all the plates. Very sad.

Doug

Edited May 17, 2011 by Doug H.

[kamikaze1a]

It's a tough battle to find your "perfect" optic. Just like cars, there is no one answer. I would say a good approach would be to go to a range and take a look at what others are running. If you see something that you like, ask the shooter if you can take a look. If you approach them properly, most are happy to share their experience and give you some feedback. Just don't ask them just as they are about to start a string...most are happy to talk about their "baby"...