NO DIVISION FILLED OUT ON SCORE SHEET

[Skydiver]

If all other attempts fail, then dropping them into open/ minor is what I do to catch their attention. Is it a good answer, probably not, but it is a whole lot better than completely blowing them out of the match by declaring a no score. Any gun in any configuration fits into open minor.,

Unless the mags are more than 171.25mm, or there is a shoulder stock, or fore grips, or shooting smaller than .354" caliber bullet.

[whitedog]

If they look at the scores and see all zeros, that would catch their attention also.....and comply with the rule. Someone explain where this is a gray area because I don't see it. I think getting kicked to open is more fair, just do not see how to justify it.

[wide45]

I'm not making my own rules. They key words in the rule are " in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment." So seeing how no one is going to shoot a gun that fits in no division without anyone noticing, I'm using my opinion to decided his gun best identified as Open/Minor. How am I breaking the rules?

Because you don't have any idea what the competitor is shooting. The word "identifies" surely means you know, not your guess. The rule: 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most cosely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is

available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I agree the MD/RM should try to find out the correct division...

If the RM/MD can not verify for sure what division the competitor was shooting, then it is no-score.

But if he/she can not, the rule is specific. If you put them in Open/Minor, you are breaking the rules as well. Sure, at a local match, you can probably find out by checking or asking a squad mate. That would be "identification." The vast majority of the time that will work.

If the "subject" shooter is unknown, no contact, etc. and no-one can tell the RM/MD what the person was shooting, then again, no score.

Maybe the run is the word "identifies". Guess the moral is to make sure Stats gets the divisions entered.

Not correct.

If the RM can identify a division other than open, that's where they go if that division is recognized in that particular match. Otherwise, it's open, unless the RM can identify that they did not meet the requirements for open, or that match does not recognize open, in which case it's no score.

Edited May 14, 2011 by wide45

[Skydiver]

It is wrong because it does not follow the rule which applies.......if we are going to bend this rule which others will follow. Let me know so I can pick which one's I want to "bend" also. We can print another book and call it a suggestion book rather than a rule book. It sucks, but them's the rules. I don't agree with them all, however we all play the game by them.

Interesting... so as stats person at a Level I match, I should send each scoresheet that has not been signed by the RO and the shooter back out to the Range Master as per 9.7.3? Or should I "bend" the rule and make prior arrangements with the RM that any unsigned scoresheets that make it to the stats shack are automatically considered to have been "conducted and scored correctly"?

If the RO forgot to put down a time, so sorry, so sad: zero score under 9.7.6.1 (citing the "not permissible for any reason" under 9.7.6 with the reason being: "the RM said so") instead of a reshoot required under 9.7.5?

Seriously, though, at our level I matches, we take unsigned scoresheets all the time and "bend" the rule. Should we lose our USPSA affiliation for doing this? If missing time or incorrect score is found, we try to track down the shooter or squad and arrange for a reshoot. Although it delays getting scores done, and is quite literally more legwork trying to track down the shooter, it makes for much happier shooters at the end of the match.

[Jim Norman]

The Rules apply to all matches, Local or the Nats. Scoring is scoring, no gimmies. Now if you are lucky enough to be able to have a stats crew at your local match that is entering scores as the match progresses and checking score sheets fine. I think most of us score after the match which means no reshoots for missing time or other problems as the stages no longer exist.

We do score on Palms and all walk-ons are automatically Open. We do check the registration for divisions. Most of the people building the match make it a point to cover themselves at some point. It is the people that are more likely to shoot and scoot that I see as the ones that have the writers block when it comes to filling out a registration form.

Open Minor at least gets a score out. changing the division is easy enough IF the shooter contacts us. We post the scores generally the same or next night and allow 3-4 days for corrections. If you can't make the correction in that time, you don't deserve to have your score corrected.

This is a volunteer operation. Someof us show up two hours earl to build and stay two hours after to tear down. A few of us spend a few more hours before and after getting supplies and stages and doing the admin work that needs to be done to run a match. So if anyone has a problem, feel free to step up and take charge. Just make sure you do a better job than the people you are complaining about.

OK, rant off.

[professor]

The Rules apply to all matches, Local or the Nats. Scoring is scoring, no gimmies. ..

..

I think most of us score after the match which means no reshoots for missing time or other problems as the stages no longer exist.

..

all walk-ons are automatically Open.

..

We do check the registration for divisions. Most of the people building the match make it a point to cover themselves at some point. It is the people that are more likely to shoot and scoot that I see as the ones that have the writers block when it comes to filling out a registration form.

..

Open Minor at least gets a score out..

OK, so the thread started with "No Division Filled out on score sheet" and morphed to cover every possible way of screwing up the info on a score sheet.

As for a missing Division for a shooter, my .02 is that the stats/registration guy dropped the ball. Registration took the shooter's money, but they didn't know each person's division? They took the guy's money, but through THEIR OWN failure to make sure that a division was noted, they'll kick the guy into Open-Minor, or even No-Score?

That's a great way to get people to come back to your club for another match. NOT.

Apparently these clubs depended on a shooter filling out all the data on their scoresheet, presumably including which gun was the first shot at the match, and which were reshoots or 2nd guns in other divisions. Sorry, that's going on my sign-in sheet, so somebody doesn't decide to turn in Gun B as their first shot, because they did better than Gun A. For similar reasons, all scoresheets are numbered when given out.

I'm stats guy at my club. We have a Sign-in sheet with the liability disclaimer, and it includes Name [printed so I can read it], checkboxes for Division, Power Factor, & Other Categories [Junior, Senior, etc.], if its a reshoot, and what the shooter paid for that gun. [Reshoots and second guns get a price break, as do club members who help with setup & teardown]. The scoresheets have spots for even more data, all laid out so you can just circle divisions and categories, plus fill-in-the-blank spots for email and snail mail addresses etc.

Most important to this discussion is that the Sign-in sheet has numbered lines, which match the numbers on the competitor score sheets. When a shooter signs up and pays their $$, THEN they get the matching scoresheet, and they are told to fill out the details. But I've already verified that they specified the division that they're shooting on the sign-in sheet. Even if they don't fill in ANY personal information on the scoresheet, I can use the sign-in sheet to identify them and what they're shooting. If its a newbie who doesn't know what division they should be in, I'll find out from what they're shooting. That's where 6.2.5 comes in. AND I'll have an experienced shooter go around with them through the match.

When the completed sheets come back, first thing I'll do is verify that they have times for each stage. That way, a guy can reshoot a stage if a time is missing. Actual scoring is done later, so some other mistakes might be on the sheets, but its rare that a whole stage gets zeroed due to missing time.

Of course, I'm not at the sign-in table for the entire day, but I'm there when the bulk of the people sign in during the first hour of shooting. When I'm shooting with a later squad, I'm not at the table. But the regulars at the club know the protocol I have set up. They follow the routine of processing the sheets for people who want to shoot another gun, or get late arrivals squared away. That way, I end up with a master sheet of how many scoresheets I should have to process, and who shot what. It helps to keep everybody in line and happy they were scored fairly.

At the end of the day, the sign-in sheet is also useful as a summary for the club of the number of shooters and what we took in.

As for having the shooters and the ROs sign off and time stamp each score on each stage of the match... Sorry, that's not happening at our level 1 matches.

If challenged on our not following the rules, or ignoring some rules and not others, etc., I will state beforehand that we are in full compliance with the rules in this regard. Despite the consistent lack of initials of ROs and competitors, our Range Master is satisfied that all score sheets qualify as valid representations of the correct scores of every competitor, as per 9.7.3.

Edited May 14, 2011 by professor

[Vlad]

Ok so I "cheated" and instead of engaging in my 4th favorite activity (arguing on the internet), I went and asked my favored NROI instructor. His answer is Open/Minor is the appropriate answer if neither was marked. If a power factor was declared then use the declared power factor.

[Jim Norman]

We have an online registration form that asks all the pertinent information and won't allow you to submit it until you supply the required information. You then get to fill out a hard copy either at home, we provide a editable .pdf of our registration form, and bring it with you or fill it out at the range. This form has all the blanks and blocks for the required info. then on the squad sheet you can make a note if needed. IF when you register, that you choose the correct division when you register online, that information is what we put into the Palms. If we make an error, we correct it, no problem. If you are a 'Walk-on' and you leave the form blank, then you get Open/Minor. If you send me a correction, I will make the change, but I will not chase you down. It really is very simple, you do need to print your name and USPSA # other than that the registration form at the match is all check marks. If you can't be bothered to make a ceckmark, why do you expect me to bother to chase you all over to get that information? I am not your mother. (although mother has been used as part of a pejorative is describing me from time to time I am sure)

We don't allow re-entry except for classifiers. With 50 - 80 shooters it takes too long. All of us pay the same match fees to shoot. We do recognize stage designers and builders. This last part has been discussed extensively in another thread,let's not drift this one any further.

Seems to work pretty well.

[sac]

Thanks for the replies. I believe at the club level you should call or e-mail. I agree that the sign in pearson should check the sheet when placing the shooter in a squad,especially for a new shooter. But the way I read the rules you can go either way depending on how the RM/RO felt or the stats person when they are going through the sheets at home.

[whitedog]

If open/minor is the general consensus, then I guess that is where they wind up. I suppose it makes sense. Still would like to see the rule changed to that if that is what is being done anyway.

[JAFO]

OK, I think I see where I was looking at this incorrectly. And to reiterate, I do think that every effort should be made, and probably is being made everywhere, to identify the shooter and put him/her in the appropriate Division. Whose fault it was or the proper way to go about signup isn't the issue. The issue is what to do when you cannot, for whatever reason, find out what Division the person was shooting through first-hand knowledge.

6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most cosely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score.

I originally read the rule above to mean that if the competitor fails to identify a Division, the Range Master can declare one for them unless they cannot determine one that suits their equipment. That is where I made an incorrect assumption. I was assuming the RM had to know what the equipment actually was, but he doesn't. If you have an Open Division at your match, then, as many have said, everything fits Open Minor. The RM can declare the shooter in that Division regardless of what they shot.

The only way the shooter would shoot for no score is if no determination can be made of the shooter's equipment and there was no Open Division available at the match. Since Level I and II matches can have a Division with less than the recommended number of shooters per App A2, I'll assume that something like this would only happen in the rare instance of a Level III match that did not have an Open Division, like a match that only had SS, Prod, and Rev Divisions.

whitedog, I was thinking on the same lines as you until I reread 6.2.5 more closely.

[JakeMartens]

why does everything have to be so uptight with some of you.....do you just like to hear yourself type?

Do what you feel is best for your match and your club.

Under the rules you can either go open/minor or no score, you decide, but just because it is your decision doesn't mean that everyone else has to do the samething.

[whitedog]

Jafo, I see yer point. Everything fits open/minor so landing there is understandable. Rule just seems vague. To me logic dictates open/minor.

[wgnoyes]

<intemperate on>

I'm sorry, but... Is this for real?! Look how many posts back and forth there are here. Seriously? Anybody ever hear of such a thing as customer service?

If you didn't do your job as the registration guy and let someone sign up without declaring a division (?!!???!), deal with YOUR mistake and call or email the competitor/CUSTOMER, and find out what he shot! Ask people on his squad. You can fix this problem, and by going to this extra miminal effort, maybe retain a shooter for your match that otherwise might not come back next time. As match organizers, we're here to serve the customer and the sport, not cheese people out of what otherwise might have been a positive shooting experience. Don't bother jumping up and down waving the rulebook on this one, just fix the guy's registration. Let there be no illusions here: this is a stupid problem to have!

At a Level 2 or 3 match, this is a non-issue. You're got registration forms, confirmation emails, self-service squadding (which through ezws makes the MD fill in the division), Jim Norman's (and others') online registration systems, etc.

<intemperate off>

[Jim Norman]

Bill, with all due respect, this is NOT a 'Stupid Question'. We have to register a fair number of shooters and squad them on match Morning. We make every effort to make sure that the shooters are registered properly, we have online registration and we back that up with a written entry/waiver and they have an opportunity to note on the squad list and finally there is a 3 day minimum posting period before the scores go final.

Is it too much to ask the shooters to fill out the registration form? Name, USPSA Number and check the division, class and PF boxes? not like they get a blank sheet of paper.

We work hard to make sure all the info is correct. If a correction is needed it is made. All that we need is to have the shooter care enough to bring it too our attention.

[Vlad]

Bill, no one is saying that we don't fix people's scores, but when I enter them I don't stop to find out peoples phone numbers, hunt them down, and get an answer, I have 60 more score sheets to deal with. If the shooter sees his division as being wrong when published they have about 2-3 weeks to contact me and get it fixed. So as far as customer services goes, turns out the customer is not always right.

[wgnoyes]

Bill, with all due respect, this is NOT a 'Stupid Question'. We have to register a fair number of shooters and squad them on match Morning. We make every effort to make sure that the shooters are registered properly, we have online registra-<SNIP>

So you have online registration. Congratulations; you're one of the few. Your system does require the competitor to pick a division, right? So that's not the problem. For the walkups, I don't know what you do, but I have someone (usually me) sitting in at the sign-up "table" with the registration form and cash box right there. I watch each competitor fill it out and I take their money. If there's a question from a new shooter about which division to pick, we assist them accordingly. NO ONE gets away without registering fully and completely, and I mean NO ONE!

"Is it too much to ask the shooters to fill out the registration form?" No, of course not. But is is also too much to ask that the match organizer ensure the form gets filled out in an effort to serve the customer? I don't think so. I should hope we would all feel that way.

[wgnoyes]

Bill, no one is saying that we don't fix people's scores, but when I enter them I don't stop to find out peoples phone numbers, hunt them down, and get an answer, I have 60 more score sheets to deal with.

But we're not talking about score entry, we're talking about competitor registration which must be completed before the first score gets entered. I just don't think it's asking all that much for the person taking the money to ensure that each and every competitor has filled out the sign up sheet completely, that's all.

[Seth]

I'm with Bill. I have over 100 shooters every month and expect there to be problems with all sorts of things. We ALSO have online registration which requests name, email, division, class, USPSA number, expiration, power factor and age.

I STILL get people that change divisions on me, fat finger things or just plain skip steps. With 100 people waiting to pay and get a score sheet on a Sunday morning, things get missed. I'm NOT about to punish someone for getting lost in the shuffle. I'm just going to fix the problem and move on. Especially since I'm capturing emails, its that much easier.

This is supposed to be fun. At a level one match, we're doing our best to be efficient, reliable and fun.... but we're doing it because we love the sport. Waving the rulebook around screaming 'OPEN MINOR' ruins every squirt of that fun, when the mistake is clerical, not performance or safety based.

[Vlad]

Bill, no one is saying that we don't fix people's scores, but when I enter them I don't stop to find out peoples phone numbers, hunt them down, and get an answer, I have 60 more score sheets to deal with.

But we're not talking about score entry, we're talking about competitor registration which must be completed before the first score gets entered. I just don't think it's asking all that much for the person taking the money to ensure that each and every competitor has filled out the sign up sheet completely, that's all.

You'd think so, but they are volunteers like everyone else, getting swamped by 50-60 people over the course of 30min, have to figure out if the competitor is paying the right amount of money (we have a fairly complex payment schedule in the mid-atlantic section), keep track of club membership (club requirement), etc. To top it all, they are actually still human and errors happen. Its not like we have %25 of the shooters with the wrong info, we get maybe one per match on the average.

[wgnoyes]

So chase him down and fix him.

[JThompson]

46 posts on this... really?

JT

[Jim Norman]

Bill,

You are missing the point. We do give people ample opportunity to make corrections. What we are trying to do is instill in the shooters we service just a little bit of that old fashioned 'PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY' that seems to be so lacking today.

hey, so long as I put my name down semi-legibly they'll chase me for the rest. NO, enough, we play a big kid game here with for real big kid toys. If you cannot be bothered to provide the information required to place you in the correct division and power factor, do you really care enough to be upset if we fail to chase you down to obtain it? Perhaps we can wipe your nose at the same time.

[Vlad]

So chase him down and fix him.

I'm not castrating my sign up staff. Oh you mean the shooter, there the problem, I only find this stuff out until after the match.

[Jim Norman]

Bill,

What happens at our matches varies a bit from club to club. At my home club, we use Palms (StageScore) so the data for the people that register on line is entered and is generally correct although from time to time someone will change on match day. IF they note it, we change it that night. Walk-ons are all entered as Open (the default setting in StageScore) we go through the forms and make the changes by looking at the master registration sheet. We ask them when they sign up to tell us the division and we mark it down there. Occasionally that gets missed, like when 8 people show up all at once with their papers and 6 of them didn't register online. Happens. We miss it, they email us, we correct it. Sometimes they change after they sign up. We look at the squad sheets, they note it,we change it.

Now, at other matches paper sheets are still used. they shooter's squad has ALL DAY to make sure they fill out the sheet. Sometimes they don't and on occasion the contact information that SHOULD be there is not. we score the shooter Open Minor and he has a considerable amount of time to get in touch and tell us what he really shot.

We are not out to hang anyone. We do however have real jobs and families and our time to chase down people for information they had multiple opportunities to provide is limited. For the record no one has ever not come back to one of our matches for this reason.