Iron sights, 1X optics and Evolution

[ericm]

I have noticed on other threads in match rules and matches some resistance to 1X optics in limited class, tactical iron, what have you (once the total domain of "iron sights" since the advent of practical optical devices and the clamoring to use them created a new class: tactical optics).

I point out that iron sights themselves have gone through an amazing amount of evolution. The click-adjustable, finely machined aperature rear sights combined with hooded, optically correct front posts or aperatures are as far above the rudimentary notch and barleycorn flintlock sights as our semi-auto, synthetic and stainless material, self-contained ammunition firing guns are above the flintlocks themselves.

It is a fact of life that many things made by man come to an evolutionary dead-end; usually because of some new technology or manufacturing process that essentially "obsoletes" that item. Examples are the buggy whip, horse-drawn wagons, black powder, commercial propeller-driven aircraft, etc., etc.

I propose we are at the defining moment in history when optical devices will suplant, and, eventually, overwhelmingly surpass "iron sights" on weapons of all kinds.

This does not mean that 2-point metallic sights (i.e. front and rear) will cease to exist; rather they will "fade away" into the fond memories of history. And like the people who still shoot flintlocks (with their "modern" sighting systems), people will still shoot the "most modern" 2-point metallic sights for years to come. But those sights are as dead evolution-wise as the Dodo.

"Remember the old Packard - what a great car!!!!"

Compared to what...a 2011 Honda Accord?

[mhearn]

Nice discussion. Enjoyed it. Might want to duck. Its seldom appreciated when you post anything that disagrees with "the others".

MHearn

[MarkCO]

Nice discussion. Enjoyed it. Might want to duck. Its seldom appreciated when you post anything that disagrees with "the others".

MHearn

Eric is an "other"

Nice post Eric.

[Bryan 45]

Very true, Eric. Even though the truth hurts....

I don't care how obsolete iron sights get, I ain't shooting cowboy action....

[Alaskapopo]

I think irons will always have a place as a back up sighting system to optics. I feel their days as a primary sighting tool are long since past. The people who use them seem to do so out of nostalga more than anything else. Like shooting Cowboy Action shooting.

Pat

[Doug H.]

Does this mean that the guys shooting irons will have to dress up?

Doug

[Vlad]

Does this mean that the guys shooting irons will have to dress up?

Only if they are shooting naked now.

[Cody_2130]

I am planning on using irons on my gun for a few reasons. First off some quality iron sights are the closest to fitting my budget, and second they seem like a far better investment than a $600+ EoTech red dot.

[Big Bore]

First, I guess no shooting in the old loin cloth anymore.

Second, if Irons are going the way of some extinct creature that was either stupid or tasty I need to think about why I shoot irons to begin with. First reason would be, not following the rest of the pack. I don't really see myself as a loner but following along with the rest of the scoped tactical mob doesn't really appeal to me.

The challenge of using an out of date sighting system and scoring well against shooters using high priced equipment kinda gives me that warm fuzzy fealing also.

The other reason would be that I have really good vision and can see and pick out colors and contrast better than most people. When others are bitchin about shadows and gray steel against different back grounds (Even with optics.) I can see that target about 95% of the time. This tends to piss people off, especially when I hit it when the suns going down and its damn near dark. Ask Craig.

Last reason would be I happen to be married to a CPA, and getting the latest greatest really expensive piece of glass to try out and see if I like it doesn't happen. I have to do a lot of talking to spend much money.

So, if some whiz bang expensive 1x optics are going to take over my class so be it. Just ask your self a question: "Do you really want me shooting an optic? I can pick up targets even faster with one.

See you Limited shooters at the IronMan.

[bigbrowndog]

on the topic of outdated equipment, ericm still uses a 1100!!!!!!

Trapr

[dcloudy777]

Hmmmm.... EAS... eighties action shooting? Where did I put my pastel t-shirts and piano tie?

DanO

[DyNo!]

I think irons will always have a place as a back up sighting system to optics. I feel their days as a primary sighting tool are long since past. The people who use them seem to do so out of nostalga more than anything else. Like shooting Cowboy Action shooting.

Pat

Yup - I've got a set of back-up irons on my rifle in order to be able to finish a match should my primary fail in some way - but the plan is not to use them.

Have any major matches not jumped on the 1X bandwagon? I was thinking of building an irons only upper but it seems like it might just be a waste of money since I can't think of any that haven't moved to 1X.

[ericm]

The post by Big Bore above would seem to be a very reasoned reason to use iron sights: be different and enjoy your self.

What I hope we all can avoid is the "I DEMAND a class...." attitude.

"I DEMAND a Class.....":

..........in Tennis where I can use my wood-framed, catgut strung racket.

..........in NASCAR where I can use my 1967 Formula V racecar.

..........in the NBA for people 5'-0" and less.

..........in action shooting where I can use my Remington Rolling Block in .43 Spanish.

(I'll bet Trapr thought I was going to say "1100")

[Bryan 45]

I like to shoot irons because I paid $3K for Lasik and I'm going to use these eyes.

[Vespid_Wasp]

I like to shoot irons because I paid $3K for Lasik and I'm going to use these eyes.

Ditto.

[Jadeslade]

Well iron sights may become obsolete in competition. They will remain in use in the world. When it is raining, foggy, up close and personal and in a million other situations. It is good training and good to know how to use iron sights. If you are less than 30, they can be as fast. Lasik only works for awhile. I would not quite put them in a place with flint-locks. Probably somewhere around single stack type guns. Agreed that they should be combined in"limited" or Tac Lite class for all matches. The numbers just aren't there to continue having separate divisions. ericm is an awesome shooter.

[Alaskapopo]

Well iron sights may become obsolete in competition. They will remain in use in the world. When it is raining, foggy, up close and personal and in a million other situations. It is good training and good to know how to use iron sights. If you are less than 30, they can be as fast. Lasik only works for awhile. I would not quite put them in a place with flint-locks. Probably somewhere around single stack type guns. Agreed that they should be combined in"limited" or Tac Lite class for all matches. The numbers just aren't there to continue having separate divisions. ericm is an awesome shooter.

Like I said I see them in the back up role but not as a primary. Heck even in the real world some people are experimenting with optics on their handguns now with reasonable success. Guys are mounting Trijicon RMR's and Delta points to the slides on their Glocks and M&P's for duty carry in the military and inleo circles. Give it another 10 years I think optics like these will be standard on handguns as well.

Pat

[villageidiot]

So if irons sights are going to way of the dodo, why no just eliminate the division and have Tactical and Open?

[Vlad]

because red dots have a role?

[DyNo!]

So if irons sights are going to way of the dodo, why no just eliminate the division and have Tactical and Open?

They aren't - iron sights can be shot more competitively against 1X optics than 4X optics.

[el pres]

Uhhh ? Where the hell is the Geologist, does he know what you guys are up to ??

Edited May 14, 2011 by el pres

[J-Ho]

I am very interested to see what happens with the 1x optics. Are they really faster? I don't know. Time will tell. It's gonna be fun.

[sono]

The 1X optic is faster for me. I've run drills with both guns and the timer don't lie. However, If I work on rifle alot before timing myself it's a wash. Point is to me is that "the dot" takes less practice than aligning two metal things. Look at the Blue Ridge results. The top 5 finishers all used something other than irons.

For me I'll keep running the irons for a while because it's what I enjoy. Already tried a small offset dot for hoser work which is legal under the new rules at most matches, but it's now off the gun. Just didn't like the two sight system thing. I'm curious to see where I finish in the Pro/Am with a iron sight only gun. Time will tell. Now where the hell is Kurt's response?

[barrysuperhawk]

It's ironic that if you put a 1x on a rifle, everyone will tell you it's no competitive advantage...then ask them about putting that same sight on a shotgun or pistol, and "poof" your butt is in open, because suddenly it *IS* a competitive advantage.

I have already had my butt handed to me on this subject in the CMMG thread, so I will try not to re-hash too much, but I do get kinda wound up about Heavy metal class. My point is that HM is to 3 gun what Single Stack is to USPSA. It's a separate, restricted class that tries to insure that all of the competitors are running close to the same equipment. No Optics, no comps, 12ga pump, single stack 45, 20 rounds in the rifle, .308 winchester caliber rifles, and buddy, you better love recoil.

Modifying the rules to allow more, different equipment to compete detracts from what I believe the original point of the class was, back when it was called He-man. To me, I would like to see it as a bit of a purist class, if you will forgive the repeated reference to uspsa, like Single Stack.

[kurtm]

Hey I agree with My brother.,..EricM...get it???

I think SONO has a very valid point..."Point is to me is that "the dot" takes less practice than aligning two metal things" AHHH right there we have the crux of the matter....LESS PRACTICE....why do you thing Mother Green went over to Dots in a big way....the guys could get hits with LESS PRACTICE which = less ammo expended in PRACTICE.

Everyone throw up this here Blue Ridge match.....well that is just one out of the last 5 that allowed it and in all but one of the other ones IRONS won!, and not by a little. A thing to note, only one of the top "Iron shooters" was really ever an iron sight shooter all the rest were dot guys from the get go. I can only feel that if Robbie, or Bruce had been using the good old Irons that they used to whip us all with it would have been a bit different, but that is all supposition. Don't use just one example to judge the average.....although my amigo Kelly could very easily been first either way and probably would have! but due to the lack of a good iron sight affectianado in the ranking you can't say dots are better, those guys weren't there....nor can you say they are worse.

I end with this. Dots haven't "Changed the game" what they have done is change the practice and like I said else where this division will always be won by the guy who spends the time practicing...not surfing the sales at SWAFA.