legal reloads

[ErikW]

I shot my third-ever IDPA match Saturday. One stage they made everybody start with only six rounds in the gun, engage two targets with two rounds each, engage a Pepper popper, then two more targets later. I hit the popper with my fifth round and dropped the empty mag to the ground while reloading behind cover before finishing the stage.

I heard some grumbling from the peanut gallery about an illegal reload, that it wasn't one of the three legal IDPA reloads.

Just what the hell am I supposed to do besides drop an empty mag? Put it in my pocket? Shoot the gun to slide lock, even though I've neutralized all the threats? What's practical about shooting your gun empty in the middle of a gunfight? What's practical about a coup-de-grace shot on a previously neutralized threat? What's practical about flinging some extra lead loose in the neighborhood?

[Ron Ankeny]

Erik:

You know the answer...either shoot to slide lock or retain the mag. Who says it needs to make sense? Afterall, it is just a game.

[Bill Schwab]

The reloads, at least in my opinion, are one of the big problems with IDPA right now.  

I did the same thing as you at one of my first IDPA matches, and my ROing buddy (Hi Jason!) was quick to smack me back into IDPA reality.

Bill

[ErikW]

OK then what's the third kind of legal reload? At the gun with retention?

It was interesting watching everybody shoot their guns dry and do standing reloads in the open or only partly behind cover.

From what I've seen, IDPA has no business slamming USPSA/IPSC for being impractical or for calling themselves defensive.

Oh yeah, I saw only one real concealed carry gun, mine. Everything else was full size (G34/35, 1911, Beretta 92, etc.).

[Jason Quick]

This is from the rule book:

"There is NO provision for a slide down (speed reload) in IDPA shooting. All reloads must be either made from slide-lock or be of the tactical-load/mag. change with retention type."

Any time you do a reload with the slide down you have to retain the mag.

I would also like to see more freedom on the reloads, but I'm not holding my breath.

The shooters that reloaded without using cover should have been given 3 sec.  If there is cover you have to use it for a mag change.

I just play the "game" dumb rules or not.

(Edited by Jason Quick at 5:32 pm on Dec. 17, 2001)

[ErikW]

What am I supposed to do with a retained empty Glock 26 magazine, use it as a buttplug?

OK, I got it. Next time, rack the slide to lock the gun open before dropping the empty magazine. Voila, stupid but legal IDPA reload.

[Nik Habicht]

Erik,

There's another option.  You could do the much dreaded tactical reload/reload with retention and just pocket the empty mag.  While I agree with all of the criticisms leveled at the reloads in IDPA, everyone has to play by the same rules.  It doesn't matter to me whether I'm shoopting USPSA, GSSF, IDPA, or Steel matches, I'm happy to shoot the course however it was designed.  I may think that some (or sometimes a lot) of the course design is boneheaded, but a tac reload in the middle of a match is still more fun than many other things I could be doing in my spare time....

[Jason Quick]

Erik:

I hate to tell you this, but if you "rack the slide to lock the gun open before dropping the empty magazine" you may also get a 3 sec. procedural penalty.

Don't let loaded ammo hit the ground (single round or in a magazine) unless you are clearing a jam, or clearing the gun at the end of the stage.

If loaded ammo does hit the ground and you pick it up before moving on (or shooting) you won't get a procedural.

I think you only had two options after the popper.

option one: shoot your last round at the 5th target while moving to cover.  Behind cover slide lock reload, then using cover shoot target #5 with one more shot then shoot #6 with two more.

option two: after popper move to cover, reload with retention, using cover engage targets 5 & 6 with two shots each.

When "tactical-loading" you can and should leave the slide down, just retain the magazine, even empty.

When "slide lock reloading" just let the magazine fall.

Once you get past all the silly rules you'll have a good time.

[talon]

Just my .02, but I think the IDPA mindset is that you can't  round count in a combat situation. So how can you do a reload if your not at slide lock.  I just happened to see a real shoot out on "cops" or some other show just the other night and I saw him press the trigger 3 times before he figured out the gun was empty.

Right, wrong, or indifferent IDPA seems to pretend to be more " real life" than other shooting sports.  Viewed in this light it all makes sense. Cents ?

[ErikW]

Jason,

Isn't there a rule against shooting extra rounds to go empty and slide lock? Like if I had pinged the popper twice instead of once. Or I could deliberately miss the first shot. I don't know how they can enforce things like these.

Talon,

I get it.

[j1b]

Erik

1) I agree - at times its rediculous. But . . . the point was made - this is just a game. If you play it like a game then don't worry about the rules too much. I broke a ton when first starting IDPA - but I'm sure I did when I first started shooting IPSC too - I probably just don't remember.

IDPA has its merits and its de-merits. I play it because its the only game in town.

In regards to shooting a little extra to get that mag empty . . . I rarely ever do this. The time spend reloading hardly ever worth the ambiguous FTDR rule. What I almost always do is reload from slide-lock. It is almost always quicker - and it prevents me from getting in too much trouble.

JB

[midvalleyshooter]

Here are the IDPA reload rules as I understand them Erik. The 3 IDPA reloads are tac load at the gun, reload with retention and the slide lock reload. Unless the COF specifies you get to choose.

As far as what pistols you saw, the full size pistols are legal in IDPA and carried by plenty of people.

Next to the reloads who is using a "gamer" pistol is probaly the next favorite IDPA topic. Not as exciting as the IPSC vs. USPSA debate but we will persevere:)

Carry on,

Keith

[EricW]

IDPA:  "It's just a game...."  Huh?  Back up the truck, Jake!!  I thought IDPA's raison d'être is that it is "tactically correct."    And now I find out, Heavens to Betsy, that it's only a game!  All reality has been shattered for me!!

What's next?!!  Is someone going to tell me that the Fox special was all BS and that Man really DID land on the moon.  Excuse me, I have to take my medication now...

E

[miyamoto]

eric likes his "ipsc" too much.

i went to the desert classic.

i thought i had seen whiners at idpa matches...i was wrong. some folks take the cake.

anything on a clock is a game.

it is just a matter of getting over yourself.

have fun,

will s.

[EricW]

Will S,

It's not that I'm in love with IPSC, it's just that I can't stand hypocrisy.  

Eric

[miyamoto]

oh, i am with you on that and share all your disagreements for the most part.

i try not to let the stuff get to me. i have...less fun then.

hey, i carry my big government model 1911 every day...if not that, i carry my g34 everywhere i go...;-)

have a good one,

will s.

[Jason Quick]

Erik,

Your right about "dumping rounds" to goto slide lock.  I almost never do that  I'm a gamer so what.

This is a short funny story about the topic legal reloads.

A few years ago at the IDPA nats one of my buddies watched a top shooter shoot a stage before him.  This top shooter got 1st or 2nd place overall that year.  My buddy shot the stage the same way as the top shooter, DUMPING ROUNDS and all!  The RO asked him why he took extra shots on a few targets, so he replyed thats how (top shooter) shot it.  I would have loved to see the RO's face.

EricW,

There all games to me  You won't hear me or most IDPA shooters put down IPSC.  If I'm shooting I having a good time.

[Phil Dunlop]

I'm with both Ericks on this one, total hypocracy! It may only be a game, but thats not how they sold it, and no doubt it would be a different game had Bill Wilson beaten Chip McCormack to the Tripp frame!

Thankfully it hasn't reached our shores yet.

P.D.

[midvalleyshooter]

For me IDPA is sport. Though I would not be afraid to use my IDPA sidearms as weapons if necessary.

I shoot IDPA for the simplicity of equipment. I like to shoot different pistols: Kimber 45, Glock 17 and 34, all pretty much stock. I like bladetech holsters because they are simple and they work. With such a setup a win is possible at any IDPA match anywhere, if the shooter does their part. To my knowledge that is not true any longer of most IPSC matches.

Our little club gives away no prizes. But we usally provide a hot lunch The shooters provide the best prize of all, friendship. When the trophies and plaques are long forgotten stacked in cardboard boxes in the attic, friendships continue.

Happy Holidays,

Keith

[jmc9x23]

Why does everyone hate the reloads so much? Most clubs allow you to shoot dry and use the slide lock reload. So insted of doing the reload w/retention , advance to the barricade and engage targets until you run dry and do the SlideLock load. On a vickers course that calls for two rounds on each target, you better put two on each target before you start to make up rounds or I will ding you with a FTDR for gaming. Some shooters figure if they just lay down 3 shots on each it will bring them to SL at a certain point, you're welcme to make up shot as long as you shot the course in the spirit it was designed.

I shot a match this week that required you to put the safety on or decock the gun before advancing to the next barricade. Sounds untactical but thats what they wanted on this range...OK I'll do it because everyone else is required also...no big deal.

If people would look at the reloads as a skill test and not a tactical exercise, we would not really be having this disscussion.

Just shoot it and hope when the time comes, whatever you need to do in a gunfight you will be able to do.

[talon]

Pardon ? I don't get that.  If the course is vickers and specifies 2 on each target and I shoot 2 on the first target and call one a miss and make up that shot before going on to the second target you would call that an ftdr ?  I really hope this isn't what  you mean. Please correct me.

Also, the safety or decock part of your post almost convinces me this was not an IDPA sanctioned match.  I mean really the IDPA founders consider the "we all do it on this stage so it doesn't matter what it is philosophy" a major reason for founding IDPA.

---

Quote: from jmc9x23 on 11:17 am on Dec. 23, 2001

Why does everyone hate the reloads so much? Most clubs allow you to shoot dry and use the slide lock reload. So insted of doing the reload w/retention , advance to the barricade and engage targets until you run dry and do the SlideLock load. On a vickers course that calls for two rounds on each target, you better put two on each target before you start to make up rounds or I will ding you with a FTDR for gaming. Some shooters figure if they just lay down 3 shots on each it will bring them to SL at a certain point, you're welcme to make up shot as long as you shot the course in the spirit it was designed.

I shot a match this week that required you to put the safety on or decock the gun before advancing to the next barricade. Sounds untactical but thats what they wanted on this range...OK I'll do it because everyone else is required also...no big deal.

If people would look at the reloads as a skill test and not a tactical exercise, we would not really be having this disscussion.

Just shoot it and hope when the time comes, whatever you need to do in a gunfight you will be able to do.

---

[jmc9x23]

Are you going to do it on every target? In IDPA, by the time you realized you missed a shot and go back and make it up you've lost yourself more time than it's worth. If you squeezed one off that you know was off target and triple tap that target no problem, but if you triple tap each target to get to a slide lock  to gain an advantage then it will be a FTDR.

[Duane Thomas]

Erik,

On that stage, the way you describe it, I think the best way to handle the scenario would have been to advance to cover with your last round in the gun, fire one shot on the first of the last two targets, the slide locks back, reload behind cover, back out and one more on that target, then double tap the last one. IDPA legal and you don't have to futz around retaining an empty mag. Though I've done just that on a stage before - won the stage, too.

As to full-size 1911s not being "real carry guns," no offense, dude - and I mean that seriously - but I carry my full-size Wilson .45 every day. Of course I've also shot a G26 at an IPSC match. Man, but that short sight radius was not the best choice for those 25 yard head shots.

[ErikW]

One thing about slide lock reloads: my hands often grip the G26 slide release so it won't lock back when empty. (It was such a problem I considered hacking it off.)

Carrying a 1911 or any full-size gun all day everyday is something a lot of people can't do. Sure, some can pull it off, but I don't think all those big guns at the IDPA matches were carried.

My local USPSA club is going to run some IDPA matches this year. This is going to be interesting.

[Duane Thomas]

Yeah, one thing about the straight-thumbs "IPSC grip": it doesn't work with some guns. I've seen Glock, SIG and Browning Hi-Power users have just your problem, the gun doesn't lock open when empty because the way the gun is gripped depresses the slide stop. I've also, on Glocks, seen many instances where the heel of the support hand, pressing up on the slide stop, causes it to lock the slide back with rounds still in the magazine. The straight-thumbs grip was built around the 1911, and it's with that gun I feel it works best. And it's the grip the best shooters in the world use, so it must be good, right? Unfortunately those shooters are, by and large, shooting 1911s, and when we try to apply the gripping technique that works so well with that gun to other designs, sometimes we get in trouble.