How to make IDPA better

[John Thompson]

Chris,

Whether it's tacticaly correct is the whole point when the IDPA tells you you'll do it this way because it's good for you.  It's not good for me when I have to compete with gamers who sew a lining in their "tactical t-shirt"(or the ultra fashionable camera vest) pockets so that they'll stay open for a faster reload.

[Duane Thomas]

Lot's of thought-provoking comments here. I'll try to hit them all:

About the new Rule Book "pissing people off": I can understand why IDPA High Command felt they had to update the rules. I remember, years ago, talking to IDPA board member John Sayle about some of the ridiculous stuff I was seeing out at matches, and he sighed sadly and said, "When we started IDPA one of our goals was to not have a lot of rules, and there was a lot of stuff we just figured was common sense. But apparently it's not, so I guess we'll just have to be more specific when we update the Rule Book."

I'm talking about SOs who have their own bizarre takes on the rules. The example I discussed with Sayle went thus: IDPA had, and has, a rule against shooters taking sight pictures before firing a stage. They want you to just draw the gun and go. Okay, fair enough. So I step up to the line to do a standards exercise, and just to check my NPA I extend my arms in a shooting stance to get set up on the first target. The SO has a hissy fit. "No sight pictures!" Excuse me? In order to have a sight picture you need two things, right? A front sight and a rear sight. If I extend my arms with no gun in my hands, that is NOT a sight picture. This guy was always good for stuff like that. So now in the Rule Book they specify that "taking a sight picture prior to shooting" refers to the act of aiming a loaded or unloaded gun downrange prior to the start signal. Should they have to get specific in the Rule Book about something so simple? Well, one would like to think not, but the truth is, apparently yes.

j1b, you sound curious about the difference between the old Rule Book and the new. Why not ask someone who's been shooting IDPA for awhile to loan you their copy of the "Red Book." What you'll find is that, with very few exceptions, the rules haven't really changed, they're just more specific.

I don't really think people should be allowed to shoot an IDPA course of fire as "they see fit." IDPA is intended, ideally at least, to nurture skills that could save your life in a self-defense shooting. You let people shoot stages as they see fit, and it'll turn into IPSC run 'n' gun before you know it.

I think one reason "even the winners at an IDPA match don't look impressive" is that the rules of the game (use of cover, tactical reloads, penalties for shots outside the 8" circle) force even the best shooters to slow down their progress through the stage enough that, to untutored eyes, they look less highly skilled than an IPSC shooter running and gunning through a field course at Warp Nine. This is an illusion, but easy to believe if you don't know any better.

I found the comment, "An example is the IDPA idea that the weapon types compete separately. Sounds great but folks always want to compare overall scores," very interesting. This is true as far as it goes, but the fact is that in IDPA the rules force shooters to slow down so much that it really doesn't matter what sort of gun you shoot. That's why the IDPA Nationals can be won with a Beretta 92 instead of absolutely requiring a 1911 as in IPSC. To win in IPSC doesn't require a gun capable of cutting-edge speed because you're not going to be firing with cutting-edge speed. And suddenly all the other gun types become competive with the 1911.

Shooters in IDPA are forced to drop to one knee because IDPA High Command doesn't want you shooting over the top of cover, they want you shooting around the side of cover. If you let people use low cover in the most time efficient way, they'd just crouch slightly while shooting over the top and then move on. This is the fastest way to do it because it doesn't require you to get really low or drop to one or both knees, you can fire up the targets and never really stop moving while on your way to the next shooting position. However in the real world this is a MUCH less efficient use of cover.

The next time you're at an IDPA match that has the classifier set up, stand in front of the 55-gallon drum and have someone else get behind it and simulate shooting over the top of cover while standing and crouching, then simulate shooting around the side while dropping to one knee. Look at the difference in the amount of exposure to hostile fire. Going over the top of necessity requires exposing your head from the eyes up to aim - you've got almost your entire brain box hanging out there saying, "Hi! Shoot me." Going around the side of cover allows you to shoot while exposing only one eye and a tiny slice of the side of your face.

Maybe they should explain in the Rule Book why they have you do this, instead of just telling you, "Drop to one knee and shoot around cover, you can't just crouch and shoot over the top," figuring the reason why is self-expanatory. But whether they spell it out or not, there IS a good reason they have you do so.

I did notice, after shooting IPSC for about a year, when I went back to IDPA I had a serious tendency, when doping out how to shoot a stage, to apply the IPSC principles of figuring out the most EFFICIENT way to shoot the stage, i.e. the fastest. I'd gotten away from thinking about the SAFEST way to shoot the stage if it was a real world situation, which is what will win for you in IDPA.

I don't really think that whether you have an 8, 9 or 10 round mag in IDPA makes any difference to a good shooter. The IDPA Rule Book states that stages should be 6-shot revolver friendly. With no more than six shots required from any shooting position, if you're hitting what you need to, any of those mags will get the job done with ammo to spare. A few months ago I shot an IDPA match with my 7-round carry mags instead of the 8-rounders I normally use, and I still won the match.

The bit about firing up close targets with the gun held down low, elbow against your side, is idiotic. I wouldn't really have a problem with that; the problem is the stage designers and SOs who define "close range" as seven yards, try to force you to use hip level point shooting at that distance, and level Failure to Do Right penalties if you actually act brain-like and raise the gun to eye level to aim. Dead from the neck up, baby.

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 10:36 pm on Nov. 29, 2001)

[ErikW]

Duane wrote: "I'd gotten away from thinking about the SAFEST way to shoot the stage if it was a real world situation, which is what will win for you in IDPA."

You mean I can draw and engage the visible targets as I move to cover, then stay put behind that cover? You can win by not shooting all the targets?

[Duane Thomas]

No, but you can win by drawing and firing up the visible targets as you move to cover, and then engaging all other targets from behind cover.

I hear what you're saying. It's one of the faults of most match mindsets - the stage isn't over until you've shot all the targets, even though that might not be totally necessary in the real world. I don't know if you can really criticize IDPA in particular for that. Yes, it's a failure, but you see the same thing in IPSC and even Cowboy Action Shooting.

[John Thompson]

Duane,  

I have no problems doing what the IDPA calls the "IPSC Squat" when I shoot around cover.  But it brings up an expample of my previously made points:  Kneeling is fine if everyone has to it: however the rule that you have to kneel but can't wear kneepads is just plain stupid.  It's a rule because guys in IPSC wear knee pads therefore the IDPA Benevolent Dictatorship don't want to see guys wearing it at their matches.  It don't get no stupider and the only thing it creats is animosity.  I got knee problems and there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to wear knee pads.  The Dictatorship says it's the clubs responsibilty to previde padding on the stage.  But what if they don't?  They're my knees and I'm responsible for taking care them.

An example of stupid S.O. stuff.  I shot a stage at a match where everytime peole went out to past the targets they were doing a little walk through.  I didn't think anything of it and when it was my turn to shoot I walked a little down range to visualize what I was going to do and I got yelled at.  I pointed out to the SO what people were blatantly doing during taping and the SO replied 'too bad'.  Everytime the IDPA makes a rule they got to later make more rules to cover that first one and it just snowballs from there.

I might see Sayle this weekend so I got to remeber to wear an IPSC shirt

[miyamoto]

hello duane thomas,

good post.

the only guy who has posted logically in this cheesy thread.

while idpa should not run a tac load on the clock. it is a good skill to consider when you are absolutely sure the fight (real life) is now over. and hopefully you will be behind some good cover while doing it.

if i were in a protracted engagement (super rare, even for the swat guys) i would consider doing tac loading in a lull. otherwise, i know i will be shooting to slide lock.

it does not matter to me. you just have to adapt. if you have the presence of mind to keep your awareness open to all that stimulus and can know the lull is upon you, then cool.

i just would not do it knowing i have threats that are able to be shot. what a waste of tartget time. i would have a big interval before i would actually do a tac load.

giving the situation plenty of time to play itself out at the end of the engagement. use your senses and look, listen, etc. then i would do a tac load after i have moved a distance away to another position of good cover.

i would not want to feel rushed doing a tac load.

idpa wanted to include this in the classifier as a skills drill. this should be done at the end of the string after the last shot is fired.

but thats the s@#ts

will s.

[jmc9x23]

Why should a reload be off the clock? Isn't it just as important a skill a shooting in a gunfight. I practice all reloads in case I ever need to have that skill in a situation.

As for knee pads. I see them under the Cargo pants of many competitors and have never seen anyone called on it as long as they were under the pants. To me it is practical that someone with bad knees could wear these in case something were to happen. Kinda like wearing a gun,it may be uncomfortable but some people see them a necessary.

[midvalleyshooter]

Hi folks,

Duane: I like IDPA, just not tactical reloads on the clock. I understand at the latest IDPA nationals all tactical reloads were done off the clock. That was a long post you made, for the most part I agree with what you wrote.

Miyamoto: Glad you cared enough about the cheese to comment

To everyone: Is it just me or is there still a little friction between the IPSC and IDPA crowds? Of course then you have the tactical people who say both are crap. But people you should hear what the cowboy action shooters say about you all

Later,

Keith

PS If you are ever in central California you are welcome at our little clubs match. Check it out at: http://www.midvalleyshooters.com/

[John Thompson]

I shot my kind of IDPA match today: five stages two of which were challenging field courses.  No mandated type of reload and lots of free reshoots before tear down.  Now if I can only get them to add swingers and stuff,

[j1b]

So . . .

Maybe I'll give up on this IDPA gig and go shoot limited 10.

I'm telling you though - IDPA converted a lot of people - lending itself to legitimacy. There was a need. I shoot it as a game (ssshhh . . . don't tell anyone) and as long as I follow the rules then in the end it doesn't really matter. I'd love to say the "open to interpretation" aspect of IPSC has appeal - but there have been VERY few IPSC matches I have shot where most stages weren't shot - or attempted to be shot - in the exact same manner as what everyone else did. If it's a shooting test - who cares if they ask you to shoot it a certain way - it's just a test you have to pass.

The kneeling thing - who cares? Oh - and allow the knee pads - because it doesn't matter if you don't need them and it does matter if you do. The reloading thing - its a test - if IDPA says its on the clock - then its on the clock. If not then its not. When the "Fit hits the Shan" everything is on the clock. Make your hits count and you'll have done all you can do - start wondering about who, what why when and where to load in gun fight and (I would guess) you could better spend your time bending over.

My primary motivation in starting this forum was to discuss the fact that IDPA is popular and seems to gain in popularity however there appears to be some things going wrong that could hurt it. It would be nice to head those issues off - so we can have more shooting sports that service the needs of us - the shooters.

I didn't know it was cheesy - but if it is I prefer Blue Cheese - that shit'll put some hair on your chest.

JB

[38supPat]

I've learned from hard experience to stay away from Te-kill-ya..many stories there...and that nasty stuff called Jagermeister....BE might remember that stuff.

Pat

[38supPat]

I've been invited several times to go out and try IDPA, and I think I'll get my Springfield .45 tuned up for it next year, I really like shooting it and IDPA does seem like the right game for it...Or I'll pick up a Glock or Walther p-99 and shoot production (whats the equivilent in IDPA?)

My only gripe really is that IDPA takes shots (no pun intended ) at IPSC right in the rule book ( I was going to give examples but there are too many to choose from) If it can't survive on its own without 'dissing' another sport, maybe it doesn't deserve to survive.

It looks like it could be a fun game, but keep the derogatory (towards other sports) comments out of the rule book, if you don't like IPSC, fine, don't shoot it. But IPSC doesn't put down PPC, Bullseye, or any other sport, the more sports we have the better and we should all support each other, not try to detract from others.

Pat

[John Thompson]

Pat, I couldn't agree with you.  The one thing that makes me want to quit the IDPA time and time again is the "Benevolant Dicatorship" constantly slamming the other shooting sports.  One of the dictators just tore apart the USPSA in a police magazine a few months ago.  He said your better off not shooting than to shoot IPSC. With guys doing stuff like that the gun grabbers can save their marketing money.

(Edited by John Thompson at 2:03 am on Dec. 4, 2001)

[Lee Watne]

I'm with you folks on IDPA cutting down IPSC. Bad maners. It's obvious IDPA is trying to be more tactical. When you talk about tactical shooting you are bound to get an argument, just like religion, everybody thinks they got it right.

[Glock A Roo]

Hello fellas.  I've shot both IPSC and IDPA but focus more on IDPA.  I am not a supremely-skilled shooter, but I am a serious student of the combat mindset, tactics, and the dynamics of performance while under stress.  IDPA is not perfect but it is a convenient forum to try stuff out.

I would like to see more movement allowed in IDPA.  I hate shooting boxes, though I understand the need for them.  I was trained (and I practice) to move when I draw, to shoot on the move whenever possible, and to move during reloads or malfunction clearances.  Space permitting, of course.  Even though IDPA strives for "tactical correctness", I feel there are far too many stages where you stand exposed to multiple threats.  I have gotten to the point where I move anyway and accept the penalties.

This is probably a course design/philosophy issue.  When I talked to an experienced, respected local SO about it he said that he agrees about the movement.  But he said that the skill level of most IDPA shooters doesn't really allow high-movement shooting to be safe.  He has a point.

Thus my solution: I have the skills, so I excercise them in the match.  When I get penalized for it, I don't care.  Bottom line: if the s**t hits the fan in "Real Life", I will know how to move in the gunfight without thinking about it.  That is a skill I am willing to lose IDPA points over.

[cpty1]

Pat, IMO IDPA SSP and USPSA production are identical.  You can use the same gun, same gear, etc.  The only difference is you would have to strap on mag holders for about 3 more magazines to shoot a USPSA match, where IDPA allows only two extra mags to be carried.

[John Thompson]

GLOCK A ROO,

That's interestng about skill level in IDPA dosen't make it safe for shooters to move because in that match I shot last week they had a target that was set on the 180 and you had to break the 180 to engage it because of hard cover!  I made a stink about it and was told there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

Chris, You can carry as many mags as you want but a course of fire can't have more than one reload needed in it.(revolver excluded)

[cpty1]

This is a cut and paste from the IDPA rulebook:

HOLSTER and AMMUNITION CARRIER RULES            

Holsters and ammunition carriers permitted for Defensive Pistol competition must be specifically designed and marketed for concealed carry/duty use and NOT for range or competition use and must be suitable for continuous all-day concealed carry wear, unless you are a full-time law enforcement patrol officer, and then your duty gear is acceptable. All holsters/ammunition carriers must be worn in a manner consistent with everyday concealed carry use. A maximum of two (2) spare magazines carried in 2 single pouches or 1 double pouch or three (3) speedloaders may be worn at any time. One additional magazine may be carried on the person for “charging” purposes only.

[John Thompson]

I only have the original rule book, obviously another new rule:)  

[Steve Moneypenny]

all i have to say is..... kyle, your stomach MUST be made of better steel than a pot belly stove! unless you were throwing that weight off your chest to get your little brown paper bag. and why did you bake the potatos? raw ones aren't have bad, if you don't mind the crunch.

IDPA and Production division with the same gun is fun, but the USPSA shooter will be about B class when on the edge of Master in IDPA.

The 2 mags rule has been in effect as long as i have shot the sport.  

Letham doesn't need a Single stack friendly sport, he kicked butt in area 1 with a springfild single stack if my information is correct... now i have the urge to try a 6" gun just for fun... lol.

idpa is fun, just not as much fun in the same place ;-)

[Glock A Roo]

---

Quote: from John Thompson on 2:55 pm on Dec. 4, 2001

GLOCK A ROO,

That's interestng about skill level in IDPA dosen't make it safe for shooters to move because in that match I shot last week they had a target that was set on the 180 and you had to break the 180 to engage it because of hard cover!  I made a stink about it and was told there is no 180 rule in IDPA.

---

That's right John, no 180 rule in IDPA.  At a match this weekend we had a stage that required going beyond the 180.  The stage was designed by the same SO i mentioned above.  I guess he's more worried about people engaging and moving at the same time than he is about statically breaking the 180 line.

[cpty1]

Don't want to thread drift here, but somewhat along the same lines re: IDPA ROs concern for safety -   At the IDPA nationals this year, when a squad would arrive at a bay to shoot, the whole squad would line up and load their weapons; stay hot the entire time; then line up and show clear when the whole squad finished shooting.  Coming from a USPSA background I found this interesting.  I was impressed with the tremendous amount of time this saved in running a squad through a stage.  It makes sense that if you're going to trust someone to run around safely with a weapon on a field course, then you should be able to trust them with a loaded weapon in a holster behind the line.  You did have to get a RO and unload if you left the bay before your squad was finished.  This same philosophy would be terribly unsafe in USPSA right now due to some of the holsters on the market, or more accurately put, maybe some shooters inability to safely secure their weapon in these type holsters.  I've seen a lot of guns hit the ground or floor at USPSA matches.  Luckily, they've all been unloaded at the time.

[jmc9x23]

The "muzzle Safe" points are up to each range your shooting at. I shot at Blackwater and they have a 360 shoot house,so when in Rome...... . Other Ranges I've shot at Have birms and they don't want the muzzles pointed up over the birms. So thats why IDPA leaves it up to the club.

[talon]

I have only been around for a year now so correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't IDPA started by a bunch of disgruntled IPSC shooters ? And if thats true wouldn't we expect to see the type of (arguments, discussion) we are seeing now ?

[Duane Thomas]

"My only gripe really is that IDPA takes shots (no pun intended  ) at IPSC right in the rule book....It looks like it could be a fun game, but keep the derogatory (towards other sports) comments out of the rule book, if you don't like IPSC, fine, don't shoot it. But IPSC doesn't put down PPC, Bullseye, or any other sport, the more sports we have the better and we should all support each other, not try to detract from others."

I've said this before, but since IDPA is the bastard child of IPSC, it's pretty inevitable there's going to be a certain amount of venom there. Saying, "Can't we all just get along?" to IPDAers about IPSC is kind of like saying, "Can't we all just get along?" to Protestants about Catholicism right after the Great Schism.

I've heard a lot of negative comments toward IPSC at IDPA matches, and even at SASS matches. The only place I've never heard anyone putting down another shooting sport, strangely enough, is at an IPSC match. IPSCers seem content to do their own thing and not worry about what other people are doing.